Go Back   CyclingNews Forum > Cafe > General

General Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #5931  
Old 12-22-12, 13:49
rhubroma's Avatar
rhubroma rhubroma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,027
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merckx index View Post
You might be partly right. When Britain banned guns following Dunblane, homicides went way down, as noted by Amster, but armed robberies I believe have gone up. There are certainly far more armed robberies in Britain now than there were half a century ago, when there was essentially no gun control. This may be in part because criminals know people can’t defend themselves. But the fact remains that homicides have gone down.



While these comparisons are quite germane to the discussion, I still think the “more guns, more homicides” formula is overly simplistic. Russia has very tough gun control laws, but a homicide rate more than double that of the U.S. Why? I don’t know, but I suspect that a lot of Russians get around the laws. Bribery is common there, and there is a very active black market.

Then there is Japan, with strong gun control and virtually no homicides. But the police in Japan have much more power over suspects than in the U.S. Also, the community in general in Japan has more influence over individuals. Japanese do not have the individualist, frontier mentality common in America. This almost certainly contributes to the lower murder rate.

I think the better statistical comparisons to make are the same country before and after gun control. This eliminates differences in culture between countries. Britain experienced a large drop in homicides following the ban, though as I noted, armed robberies have gone up.



Been there, done that. Remember the Prohibition?

But you make a good point. Most of the people who oppose gun control have no problem advocating tough laws against drugs, which are not used to kill other people. In fact, we know if drugs were legalized, there would be far fewer murders, particularly in the countries supplying the drugs, but also in the U.S.

Edit: The NRA has proposed putting armed guards in schools. While I strongly disagree with them on gun control in general, this is basically what I have been saying. It does not mean arming teachers. It just means having a security guard at the door. As many others have pointed out, we routinely have many other security/safety features in schools and other public buildings, such as fire alarms, chemical hazard checks, etc. I think this is in line with that.

As I suggested before, leave it up the individual schools whether to do this or not. Does the extra cost and (for now) minor hassle justified by preventing what is a very low probability but horrific event? In any case, I think this issue should be considered separately from gun control. If you have trained guards, there is no need for citizens to be armed.
Any comparison with Russia and the US as a means to gage the effectiveness of gun controls is inappropriate, because in the post communist era the country effectively exists within a pre-modern, oligarchic mafia state in the throes of chaos. The frequent incidences of homicide are thus a structural problem resulting from the black market regime and the social tension that comes with it. It's like Napoli on a far grander scale.

I'd be interested to know if the higher holdup rates in Britain are in any way connected to a not fortuitous multiculturalism, which was the inevitable backlash of British imperialism, population growth and other social transmutations. None of which can be effectively legislated against. While imagine if a Far West unregulated situation had remained in tact over the past decades. More gun crimes and more gun homicides simultaneously.

In theory I suppose placing an armed guard at every school might be a successful deterrent (though I neither endorse this, nor believe it). On the other hand would this measure not merely be an obstacle for a would be killer to evade, or even multiply the probability of armed conflict? Philosophically it is in any case a horrendous solution at the pedagogic level and certainly destined to compound the problem within a historical narrative of longue durée. A better approach, consequently, is to rationally work toward a long term diminishment of fire arms, not promote their further ubiquity. At any rate, certainly to the gun market fanatics, a state of protracted tension is much more congenial to both their ideological and business interests: not so congenial, though, to the education of America's youth. In whose long term interests thus should the State be more preoccupied?

Other suggestions to arm the teachers are patently deranged.

Last edited by rhubroma; 12-22-12 at 16:02.
Reply With Quote
  #5932  
Old 12-22-12, 15:47
frenchfry's Avatar
frenchfry frenchfry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bourgogne
Posts: 1,535
Default

An armed guard in every school.

We have really sunk to the bottom. Is there any hope for mankind?
__________________
"C'est une triste chose de songer que la nature parle et que le genre humain n'écoute pas" - Victor Hugo
Reply With Quote
  #5933  
Old 12-22-12, 15:56
rhubroma's Avatar
rhubroma rhubroma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,027
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutto View Post
....real safeguards against tyranny, now that is funny.....have you ever heard of the USSR?...kinda tyrannical...really not popular among its citizens...and lasted a real long time....and remember the means to enforce tyranny are much more better now...and the US already posseses the pre-requisite bureaucracy backed by a military force willing and able and experienced in doing despicable things to innocent civilian populations for no discernibly reasonable reason at all....

...yep that revolution against that tyrannical gubermint will be just a very short series of bug splats (which if done properly will also rid the nation of the unemployed non-productive elements of society...so a classic win win situation... )...then right back to the crap beer and and KFC and KD and TV and NASCAR etc etc etc...just move along nothing to see here...

Cheers

blutto
You mean a revolution against the gov that spends 700 billion on defense (more than the next 16 military budgets combined)? Good luck with that one.

The war mongers justify this fiscal comitment through what they insolently call defense, but it is really just corporate welfare. Other than socialism. Universal healthcare, though, is evil. And, yes, let's arm the teachers as well. And while we're at it, I put forth the motion that Carthage should be destroyed.
Reply With Quote
  #5934  
Old 12-23-12, 00:56
Merckx index's Avatar
Merckx index Merckx index is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,772
Default

This Onion article from last spring captures BroDeal's view perfectly:

Quote:
FAIRFAX, VA—National Rifle Association Executive Vice President and CEO Wayne LaPierre said Monday that somewhere around 1,000 kids would have to die in a school shooting in order for the organization to reconsider their longstanding opposition to gun control.

"Yeah, that's probably the only way we'd reassess much of anything at this point: 1,000 dead kids, shot up pretty good, lying face down in the school auditorium or something like that," LaPierre said, noting that anything less than 1,000 dead kids would not be enough for the NRA to stop urging Congress to pass pro-gun legislation. "I mean, that's just a ballpark number, but I imagine seeing 1,000 or so body bags being wheeled out of a school and a whole town of crying parents would probably make us reflect on our values for at least a little bit."
Quote:
While some believed that LaPierre's remarks finally indicated a slight loosening of the NRA's pro-gun stance, LaPierre was forced to clarify his comments after his membership criticized him for introducing the idea that a playground full of bullet-riddled dead kids might cause the NRA to reconsider their position on gun control if even for a second.

"At the end of the day, I want to make it very clear that the NRA is in absolutely no rush to change anything," LaPierre later said in a written statement. "One thousand dead kids would have very little impact on us. Now if 50,000 kids died in a school shooting that might be a different story. Something around 50,000 to 80,000 dead kids. You know what, forget that. Maybe something closer to 250,000. Yeah, 250,000 dead kids."

And now for a complete change of pace:

Quote:
IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) — A dentist acted legally when he fired an assistant that he found attractive simply because he and his wife viewed the woman as a threat to their marriage, the all-male Iowa Supreme Court ruled Friday.

The court ruled 7-0 that bosses can fire employees they see as an "irresistible attraction," even if the employees have not engaged in flirtatious behavior or otherwise done anything wrong. Such firings may be unfair, but they are not unlawful discrimination under the Iowa Civil Rights Act because they are motivated by feelings and emotions, not gender, Justice Edward Mansfield wrote.
I'm having trouble believing this. Maybe impeachment proceedings could be begun against the justices, on the grounds that we view them as a threat to our sanity.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/articl...#ixzz2Ftx7xxSB

Last edited by Merckx index; 12-23-12 at 01:36.
Reply With Quote
  #5935  
Old 12-23-12, 15:08
ChrisE's Avatar
ChrisE ChrisE is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,198
Default

Being hot is not on the list of protected 'offenses' for employment, MI.
__________________
"He called me a baboon, he thinks I'm his wife." - Al Czervik
Reply With Quote
  #5936  
Old 12-23-12, 15:42
BroDeal's Avatar
BroDeal BroDeal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Above 5000 feet
Posts: 12,855
Default

I knew it would happen. Massive sales increase.

Obama: Gun Salesman on the Year

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.c...=unread#unread
__________________
"Listen, my son. Trust no one! You can count on no one but yourself. Improve your skills, son. Harden your body. Become a number one man. Do not ever let anyone beat you!" -- Gekitotsu! Satsujin ken
Reply With Quote
  #5937  
Old 12-23-12, 16:43
Amsterhammer's Avatar
Amsterhammer Amsterhammer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 2,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroDeal View Post
I knew it would happen. Massive sales increase.
Which, I guess, just demonstrates your excellent understanding of how the paranoid wingnut mind works.

Who would have thought? The NRA mouthpiece who tried to blame movies and games on Friday also managed to p!ss off Bush senior in the 90's.

http://beingliberal.tumblr.com/post/...onal-rifle-***
__________________
The LOTE has won, all hail the LOTE.
Reply With Quote
  #5938  
Old 12-23-12, 21:49
BroDeal's Avatar
BroDeal BroDeal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Above 5000 feet
Posts: 12,855
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterhammer View Post
Which, I guess, just demonstrates your excellent understanding of how the paranoid wingnut mind works.
Kudos to these real Americans exercising their Constitutional rights the libs are threatening to take away.
__________________
"Listen, my son. Trust no one! You can count on no one but yourself. Improve your skills, son. Harden your body. Become a number one man. Do not ever let anyone beat you!" -- Gekitotsu! Satsujin ken
Reply With Quote
  #5939  
Old 12-23-12, 23:04
Scott SoCal's Avatar
Scott SoCal Scott SoCal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southern California
Posts: 3,467
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterhammer View Post
Which, I guess, just demonstrates your excellent understanding of how the paranoid wingnut mind works.

Who would have thought? The NRA mouthpiece who tried to blame movies and games on Friday also managed to p!ss off Bush senior in the 90's.

http://beingliberal.tumblr.com/post/...onal-rifle-***
Amster, we are friends, but don't you think in the Lanza case that videos and movies are as much to blame as the gun? Reports are all Lanza did was play war games in his mom's basement (no joke).

So you have a mentally infirm kid playing theses games, mom has guns, mom's gonna institutionalize him and the kid takes matters into his own hands.

A perfect storm perhaps... And I'm not defending LaPierre, but guns are simply not the only issue here.

Where am I wrong?
__________________
"It makes no sense. Fire the electorate let the people speak for themselves"
Reply With Quote
  #5940  
Old 12-23-12, 23:25
Hugh Januss's Avatar
Hugh Januss Hugh Januss is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: socal
Posts: 5,763
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Amster, we are friends, but don't you think in the Lanza case that videos and movies are as much to blame as the gun? Reports are all Lanza did was play war games in his mom's basement (no joke).

So you have a mentally infirm kid playing theses games, mom has guns, mom's gonna institutionalize him and the kid takes matters into his own hands.

A perfect storm perhaps... And I'm not defending LaPierre, but guns are simply not the only issue here.

Where am I wrong?
What would happen if mom didn't have guns?
__________________
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings."

Proud member of the Clinic 1200
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.