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  #5941  
Old 12-24-12, 00:32
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Originally Posted by Hugh Januss View Post
What would happen if mom didn't have guns?

What if the kid wasn't autistic? What if he was getting proper mental health care? What if the school was 10 miles further away?

What if? What if.
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  #5942  
Old 12-24-12, 01:31
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What if the kid wasn't autistic? What if he was getting proper mental health care? What if the school was 10 miles further away?

What if? What if.
So having guns lying around is the same sort of unavoidable calamity as mental illness? FFS I thought you were smarter than this.
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  #5943  
Old 12-24-12, 01:37
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Amster, we are friends, but don't you think in the Lanza case that videos and movies are as much to blame as the gun? Reports are all Lanza did was play war games in his mom's basement (no joke).

So you have a mentally infirm kid playing theses games, mom has guns, mom's gonna institutionalize him and the kid takes matters into his own hands.

A perfect storm perhaps... And I'm not defending LaPierre, but guns are simply not the only issue here.

Where am I wrong?
No Scotty, I don't think they're remotely "as much" to blame.

I haven't been reading up on the aftermath of this tragedy, so I'll happily take your word about the kid's mental health and game obsession. I did read that the mother was one of these "prepper" crazies, who had lots of firepower on hand for whatever her warped imagination and paranoia told her was going to happen at some point in the future.

There has been a separate topic about this specific NRA statement and the accusations made about the influence of these games on another forum where I write. I think the guys there are generally younger than here, because one after another posted to say that while they are pro-gun, they also think the NRA is full of it, and that their public speakers in recent days have been a complete embarrassment. Surprisingly for gun lovers, several of them also make the very valid point (that I made in jest with a tweet post a few pages back) that these nasty, violent, games and videos are watched and played all over the world, without leading to such appalling tragedies as the one we're talking about.

Of course, the more we find out about this particular murderer's state of mind and home situation, the more we can conclude that in his case there were numerous contributory factors. His state of mind, for which he was apparently not treated, or certainly not for long enough; the effect of prolonged exposure to these kinds of violent visual stimuli; his clearly borderline insane, or at best, unfit mother; and most importantly, the ready access to guns, without which this tragedy would almost certainly never have happened. I certainly don't believe that he would have gone to the time consuming effort of building a bomb. As you suggest, seeing the guns and having ready access to them must have given him the idea. It was just too easy - it was too easy for lots of reasons, but most of all it was too easy simply because these weapons were lying right there.

The existence and glorification of the current crazed gun culture in the US (as witnessed by BD's reports of recent paranoid gun sales,) sponsored and fostered over decades by the NRA at an inestimable cost, is absolutely central to this tragedy. It is typical of the NRA's gross hypocrisy and political self-interest to attempt to shift blame elsewhere, anywhere, as long as no blame points at them.

I have never said that 'getting serious' about guns would solve 'the problem'. My position is that 'getting serious' about much tighter regulation and supervision of the entire process of buying and keeping deadly weapons is the best, most socially acceptable and desirable starting point now. I also believe there should be a legal limit on how many weapons and how much ammo anyone may possess. I'd also be in favor of funding a proper, functional, mental health care system from a tiny reduction of the 'defense' budget.
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  #5944  
Old 12-24-12, 01:40
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OK, that's what I was trying to say.
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  #5945  
Old 12-24-12, 01:46
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
What if the kid wasn't autistic?
We can't control that, can we?

Quote:
What if he was getting proper mental health care?
How do you know that much more could have been done? His mother obviously could afford the best care available.

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What if the school was 10 miles further away?
Can't control that, either.

To say that there are/were multiple contributing factors is not to dismiss efforts aimed at factors that can be controlled. Advocating better mental health care--or regulating video games, or even armed guards at schools--is not incompatible with advocating gun control.

Unfortunately, health care is not something the right wing is much in favor of, is it? Are they in favor of mental health care as part of a system of universal health care? No. Are they in favor of raising taxes to pay for mental health care for those who can't afford it? No.

The Republicans have been very clear and consistent in their belief that the government should get out of the health care business, that really, the current system of health care, that leaves about 20% of the people not covered, is just fine. It's the height of hypocrisy for them now to complain that better mental health care is the solution to the Adam Lanzas of this world.
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  #5946  
Old 12-24-12, 02:45
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What if the kid wasn't a thief and murderer and decided to hell with right and wrong, "Ima going to go shoot me some kids!!!111" The kid could control that.
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  #5947  
Old 12-24-12, 02:58
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Originally Posted by Hugh Januss View Post
So having guns lying around is the same sort of unavoidable calamity as mental illness? FFS I thought you were smarter than this.
Make damned sure you turn over every stone except the one where the real problem lies.

Inanimate objects are the real killer
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  #5948  
Old 12-24-12, 03:00
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Originally Posted by Amsterhammer View Post
No Scotty, I don't think they're remotely "as much" to blame.

I haven't been reading up on the aftermath of this tragedy, so I'll happily take your word about the kid's mental health and game obsession. I did read that the mother was one of these "prepper" crazies, who had lots of firepower on hand for whatever her warped imagination and paranoia told her was going to happen at some point in the future.

There has been a separate topic about this specific NRA statement and the accusations made about the influence of these games on another forum where I write. I think the guys there are generally younger than here, because one after another posted to say that while they are pro-gun, they also think the NRA is full of it, and that their public speakers in recent days have been a complete embarrassment. Surprisingly for gun lovers, several of them also make the very valid point (that I made in jest with a tweet post a few pages back) that these nasty, violent, games and videos are watched and played all over the world, without leading to such appalling tragedies as the one we're talking about.

Of course, the more we find out about this particular murderer's state of mind and home situation, the more we can conclude that in his case there were numerous contributory factors. His state of mind, for which he was apparently not treated, or certainly not for long enough; the effect of prolonged exposure to these kinds of violent visual stimuli; his clearly borderline insane, or at best, unfit mother; and most importantly, the ready access to guns, without which this tragedy would almost certainly never have happened. I certainly don't believe that he would have gone to the time consuming effort of building a bomb. As you suggest, seeing the guns and having ready access to them must have given him the idea. It was just too easy - it was too easy for lots of reasons, but most of all it was too easy simply because these weapons were lying right there.

The existence and glorification of the current crazed gun culture in the US (as witnessed by BD's reports of recent paranoid gun sales,) sponsored and fostered over decades by the NRA at an inestimable cost, is absolutely central to this tragedy. It is typical of the NRA's gross hypocrisy and political self-interest to attempt to shift blame elsewhere, anywhere, as long as no blame points at them.

I have never said that 'getting serious' about guns would solve 'the problem'. My position is that 'getting serious' about much tighter regulation and supervision of the entire process of buying and keeping deadly weapons is the best, most socially acceptable and desirable starting point now. I also believe there should be a legal limit on how many weapons and how much ammo anyone may possess. I'd also be in favor of funding a proper, functional, mental health care system from a tiny reduction of the 'defense' budget.
Great. Why are we only talking about guns then?
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  #5949  
Old 12-24-12, 03:15
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Originally Posted by Merckx index View Post
We can't control that, can we?



How do you know that much more could have been done? His mother obviously could afford the best care available.



Can't control that, either.

To say that there are/were multiple contributing factors is not to dismiss efforts aimed at factors that can be controlled. Advocating better mental health care--or regulating video games, or even armed guards at schools--is not incompatible with advocating gun control.

Unfortunately, health care is not something the right wing is much in favor of, is it? Are they in favor of mental health care as part of a system of universal health care? No. Are they in favor of raising taxes to pay for mental health care for those who can't afford it? No.

The Republicans have been very clear and consistent in their belief that the government should get out of the health care business, that really, the current system of health care, that leaves about 20% of the people not covered, is just fine. It's the height of hypocrisy for them now to complain that better mental health care is the solution to the Adam Lanzas of this world.
Quote:
We can't control that, can we?
We don't 'control' that and that's the point.

Quote:
How do you know that much more could have been done? His mother obviously could afford the best care available.
Yeah, MI, clearly he was as sane as Jesus.

Quote:
To say that there are/were multiple contributing factors is not to dismiss efforts aimed at factors that can be controlled. Advocating better mental health care--or regulating video games, or even armed guards at schools--is not incompatible with advocating gun control.
That's great. Where's the conversation about anything other than guns? Go ahead an point to them because try as I might, I can find NOBODY is talking about anything other than the typical knee jerk bull****.

Quote:
Unfortunately, health care is not something the right wing is much in favor of, is it
You are ****ing kidding me right here. Just because conservatives believe there are market solutions versus big government means what, exactly?

Quote:
Are they in favor of mental health care as part of a system of universal health care? No. Are they in favor of raising taxes to pay for mental health care for those who can't afford it? No.
Universal care is THE only way forward lest those that oppose are what? When have you seen conservatives (not some freak fringe) turn away fro those truly in need? This is a specious argument. It's not about raising taxes, it's about a government that does what it was designed to do. And that has nothing to do with buying millions of constituients.

Quote:
The Republicans have been very clear and consistent in their belief that the government should get out of the health care business, that really, the current system of health care, that leaves about 20% of the people not covered, is just fine. It's the height of hypocrisy for them now to complain that better mental health care is the solution to the Adam Lanzas of this world.
This is your worst post I have ever read on this board and there is no close second.
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  #5950  
Old 12-24-12, 05:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Make damned sure you turn over every stone except the one where the real problem lies.

Inanimate objects are the real killer
A gun is not an inanimate object when it is in the hands of a killer. Guns don't kill people, angry or sick people who can get their hands on guns kill people.
I know you are not stupid (?), at least I think not. So, say some one is trying to kill you, he might be crazy, he might not, he might be armed, he might not, which would be easier to control? Crazy with a gun or crazy/not crazy without a gun?
Once we take killer weapons out of the equation then we can start working on all of the other parts. Actually we can work on all of them at once, but why not start here? Because something written 200+ years ago says we can't?
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