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  #181  
Old 12-24-12, 23:29
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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Originally Posted by sniper View Post
these posts are assuming we know exactly when EPO arose in the peloton. do we?
yeah and we do. save some very rare exceptions like rooks I think, it all started in around 1991 and by 1992, in full scale. you can also look at the decline of the colombians which runs exactly paralel with this as well. I suggest you read this interview that describes very well how everything changed in the peloton in a very short time

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/20...d-how-epo.html
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  #182  
Old 12-24-12, 23:36
Cloxxki Cloxxki is offline
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Originally Posted by sniper View Post
these posts are assuming we know exactly when EPO arose in the peloton. do we?
Until someone starts claiming to have been the first ans another one claiming soon...
Something as well-published as EPO, you have to assume some riders were on it (thanks to their docs) within a year of the first available doses.
Certainly in 1988 there were some brow raising performances. Odd if you consider it pre-EPO. If you consider it as early EPO, it all makes sense.
Breuking doing well as a super early EPO user, makes one wonder whether his talent honestly was of Indurain-TT levels or he was a couple years ahead of the knowledge curve.
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  #183  
Old 12-24-12, 23:40
sniper sniper is offline
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
yeah and we do. save some very rare exceptions like rooks I think, it all started in around 1991 and by 1992, in full scale. you can also look at the decline of the colombians which runs exactly paralel with this as well. I suggest you read this interview that describes very well how everything changed in the peloton in a very short time

http://www.cyclinginquisition.com/20...d-how-epo.html
thanks Ryo, great link, compelling interview.
Quote:
But even more maddening was the way I was criticized by the press, at least certain Colombian journalists, who were not capable of understanding the fundamental change that was happening in cycling, I'm speaking of the new types of doping that became popular in the 1990s. They didn't have the guts to explain Colombian fans why our riders could no longer ride and compete like in the days of Lucho and Fabio Parra. They accused us of being lazy, and of having become bourgeois over time. It was incredibly unfair.
would be interesting to compare some Columbian pre-EPO times/speeds uphill with Wiggins/Froome times/speeds uphill, in order to get a clearer picture of what difference marginal gains really make.
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  #184  
Old 12-24-12, 23:43
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the asian the asian is offline
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Originally Posted by sniper View Post
these posts are assuming we know exactly when EPO arose in the peloton. do we?
Isn't that established now. First used in the pro peloton in 1989.
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  #185  
Old 12-24-12, 23:47
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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it's a sad history, that by the time colombia got a great new generation of riders like mejia and rincon, european cycling changed so much, they didn't have a change. that is however changing now. the rapid raise of colombian cycling in recent years to me is prove it's getting very clean again, even cleaner perhaps than the 80s. it's only natural they should dominate from a physical perspective considering they are naturally doped. some like quintana and chaves I know are 100% clean from first hand and I've seen them come up in europe so rapidly at young age, which would've been impossible 20 years ago
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  #186  
Old 12-25-12, 10:07
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Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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Originally Posted by the asian View Post
Isn't that established now. First used in the pro peloton in 1989.
According to the nice article on Cardenas it was 1991. the same year PDM/Breukink had some troubles at the Tour.
Or perhaps Cardenas meant when EPO use got massive?

Sad, sad story.
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  #187  
Old 12-25-12, 11:38
theyoungest theyoungest is offline
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Originally Posted by Cloxxki View Post
Until someone starts claiming to have been the first ans another one claiming soon...
Something as well-published as EPO, you have to assume some riders were on it (thanks to their docs) within a year of the first available doses.
Certainly in 1988 there were some brow raising performances. Odd if you consider it pre-EPO. If you consider it as early EPO, it all makes sense.
Breuking doing well as a super early EPO user, makes one wonder whether his talent honestly was of Indurain-TT levels or he was a couple years ahead of the knowledge curve.
Some stories trickle through the grapevine. And one of them is that Breukink thought EPO went too far. If you choose to believe it is up to yourself, but the evidence certainly points in that direction. You'd have to decide he was the first one to use it (as you do) to argue the contrary.

And another thing, please call him Breukink. Are you also one of those Dutchies who calls Gesink "Geesing"?
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  #188  
Old 12-25-12, 11:52
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Dekker_Tifosi Dekker_Tifosi is offline
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geesink eltingh, weenink, they all suck i tell you
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Originally Posted by BYOP88 View Post
Great to see that Porte has rediscovered his 2010/11 climbing form. Hope he can keep it for the rest of the Tour and year.
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  #189  
Old 12-25-12, 11:58
Gregga Gregga is offline
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
According to the nice article on Cardenas it was 1991. the same year PDM/Breukink had some troubles at the Tour.
Or perhaps Cardenas meant when EPO use got massive?

Sad, sad story.
Weird stuffs from the late eighties to 1990 :
- Rooks climbing better than Herrera in the 1988 TdF (Theunisse as well)
- Breukink crushing the 1989 TdF Prologue in Luxembourg, the 2nd and 3rd ITT in the 1990 TdF
- Alcala flying in the 1st ITT in the 1990 TdF

Almost all this in the same team, PDM, Johannes Draaijer's team, IMO the first "EPO team". In 1990, the italians began EPO but individually (Bugno in the Giro, Argentin in the spring classics, Chiappucci in the TdF)

In 1991 the spanish (Mauri, maybe Indurain)...

etc.
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  #190  
Old 12-25-12, 12:07
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hrotha hrotha is offline
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
some like quintana and chaves I know are 100% clean from first hand
Hahahaha. Right.
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