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  #6021  
Old 12-25-12, 14:19
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Originally Posted by Merckx index View Post
Scott and I obviously have our differences, but I would never accuse him of trolling. Maybe he has done it at some point, but I don’t see in the vast majority of his posts an attempt to troll. Of course when a large majority of regular posters in a forum disagree with you, anything you say is likely to seem like trolling. On another forum a long time ago, I used to support making doping permissible, and I was frequently accused of trolling.



Put it this way, Scott. Before Obama (and for that matter, Clinton before him) made health care a central issue of his administration, how many Republicans were calling for health care reform? Can you name one? If that isn’t evidence of support for the status quo, I don’t know what is.

Sure, now that everyone is talking about health care, the Republicans do, too. But their proposals strike me as not that different in intent as that underlying the NRA’s response to Newtown. When an issue receives so much publicity that everyone is talking about it, you have to join the conversation. You have to pretend that a) you take it seriously as an issue; and b) you have a solution that will avoid the proposals of the other side. As soon as those proposals die, you will very happily give up the conversation, because your sole or main purpose all along was not reform, but just to prevent the reforms suggested by others. It's actually the political equivalent of trolling.

Thanks to Obamacare, the issue will not die. So sure, the Republicans have proposals out there. But if Obamacare were declared unconstitutional or defeated in some other manner, and much of the public were to lose interest in health care as a pressing issue, do you really think Republicans would continue to show interest in health care reform? Seriously? If they didn't prior to Obama, why would they now?

All universal care means is that everyone is covered, for at least some things. If you aren't for that, then yes, it's hypocritical to complain when stuff happens because someone didn't get adequate care. Universal care is not, of course, incompatible with market or private solutions, which are part of the solution in many countries that have universal health care. Yet conservatives as far as I can tell haven't a good word to say about these systems, which virtually every developed country except the U.S. has in place.
Or put simply, conservatives are world class at saying "No."

Last edited by rhubroma; 12-25-12 at 14:26.
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  #6022  
Old 12-25-12, 14:46
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Indeed all them snagletooth aytalian femine have shriveled my pair away, like prunes. The only hunting I do is looking for porcini in the woods, but you don't need a gun for that. The only meat I religiously eat is wild cingiale, which means boar, in your barbarian tongue. Now, back in the land of the free and the brave, so called, I can't even get pancetta, let alone guanciale, to make my beloved amatricana sauce for pasta, which ain't right. How can these people live in such semi-darkness, it's like living in a museum!
Pancetta is over rated.

I made Mrs SoCal a nice dish of Pasta Carbonara a few nights back. Substituted pancetta with some nicely cooked smoked bacon. Served it with the smooth Mischief (pale ale) from The Bruery (SoCal brewer).

It rocked. We aren't that much in the dark. The only thing we are really missing here are the hookers on the highway turnouts.
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  #6023  
Old 12-25-12, 14:53
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Pancetta is over rated.

I made Mrs SoCal a nice dish of Pasta Carbonara a few nights back. Substituted pancetta with some nicely cooked smoked bacon. Served it with the smooth Mischief (pale ale) from The Bruery (SoCal brewer).

It rocked. We aren't that much in the dark. The only thing we are really missing here are the hookers on the highway turnouts.
You need to get your hands on some guanciale, Scott.

PS: I hope you used pecorino romano and not parmiggiano for your carbonara, otherwise it's not genuine. Pastoralism was essential to the Roman economy you know.

Last edited by rhubroma; 12-25-12 at 15:01.
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  #6024  
Old 12-26-12, 16:48
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Props to the President for cutting his Hawaii vacation short and heading back to Washington. One could argue that he shouldn't have left in the first place, but I'm going to give him credit here.

Now let's see if Boehner has any balls left to lead his party. If not, then he has to go as Speaker, and the GOP either has to get someone to lead from the middle who can actually lead which would be best for the nation, or they need to cave entirely to the Tea Party that is controlling the party anyway, and put Bachman, Lamar Smith, Tom Price, Scott DesJarlais, or someone else who supports the obstinate far right. Considering that 236 out of 241 Reps signed Norquist blood pledge, this seems the most "practical" so they should just get it over with.
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  #6025  
Old 12-26-12, 16:52
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Props to the President for cutting his Hawaii vacation short and heading back to Washington. One could argue that he shouldn't have left in the first place, but I'm going to give him credit here.

Now let's see if Boehner has any balls left to lead his party. If not, then he has to go as Speaker, and the GOP either has to get someone to lead from the middle who can actually lead which would be best for the nation, or they need to cave entirely to the Tea Party that is controlling the party anyway, and put Bachman, Lamar Smith, Tom Price, Scott DesJarlais, or someone else who supports the obstinate far right. Considering that 236 out of 241 Reps signed Norquist blood pledge, this seems the most "practical" so they should just get it over with.
I'm to the point where I kinda hope the R's in both the house and senate just vote 'present.'

Let BO and the D's own this whole thing. Govern the California way. See what happens.
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  #6026  
Old 12-26-12, 16:58
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Ah, it's 'Fiscal Cliff' time. A whole new can of worms...the fact that a situation like this can be allowed to arise at all, is a matter of some disbelief over here...Holland is the prime traditional example of different parties reaching generally acceptable compromises so that the nation can be effectively governed.

Apropos, what's happened to Bala? He usually chips in to these debates.
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  #6027  
Old 12-26-12, 18:06
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I'm to the point where I kinda hope the R's in both the house and senate just vote 'present.'

Let BO and the D's own this whole thing. Govern the California way. See what happens.
Actually, that would possibly be a better political strategy. It would get us past the Cliff, and then in 6 months a year, etc. when the economy is still flat (because you know it will be with the Dems "California style" governing as you imply) it might give the pragmatists in the GOP more leverage.

I don't see them doing it though. Too many intractables in the tea party that currently rudder the GOP.
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  #6028  
Old 12-26-12, 21:07
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I'm to the point where I kinda hope the R's in both the house and senate just vote 'present.'

Let BO and the D's own this whole thing. Govern the California way. See what happens.
That would be awesome. The Rs get all of the blame for the blow to the economy, Obama and the Ds introduce a new tax-cut bill for everyone under 250K and a new stimulus spending bill and make the Rs vote against both, the deficits are significantly lowered, and Obama's legacy (and the Ds reputation) are virtually guaranteed. The Ds are then considered the party of economic responsibility while the Rs are viewed simply (for what they are, really) as the party of obstruction.
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  #6029  
Old 12-26-12, 21:24
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Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez View Post
Actually, that would possibly be a better political strategy. It would get us past the Cliff, and then in 6 months a year, etc. when the economy is still flat (because you know it will be with the Dems "California style" governing as you imply) it might give the pragmatists in the GOP more leverage.

I don't see them doing it though. Too many intractables in the tea party that currently rudder the GOP.
It doesnt matter how bad the economy is 6 months from now if its better in 2 years and in 4 years.

Ultimately the Republicans are screwed whatever happens. I remember Fareed Zakaria saying in September that this is the election both parties need to win as the economy has already began making a turnaround.
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  #6030  
Old 12-26-12, 21:46
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That would be awesome. The Rs get all of the blame for the blow to the economy, Obama and the Ds introduce a new tax-cut bill for everyone under 250K and a new stimulus spending bill and make the Rs vote against both, the deficits are significantly lowered, and Obama's legacy (and the Ds reputation) are virtually guaranteed. The Ds are then considered the party of economic responsibility while the Rs are viewed simply (for what they are, really) as the party of obstruction.
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The Rs get all of the blame
Which is your only concern.

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Obama and the Ds introduce a new tax-cut bill for everyone under 250K
The cliff is the wet dream of the admin. Raise taxes on everybody only so they can lower them to the "working" class later. Low information voters won't get the connection and will buy what the press feeds them. Just your speed.

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a new stimulus spending bill
Wit any luck it will be four or five trillion. Hell make it an even ten.

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Obama's legacy (and the Ds reputation) are virtually guaranteed.
Tax and spend. High information voters already know this. BO's reputation is assured.

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The Ds are then considered the party of economic responsibility
Just curious, what do you think the total public debt will be by the end of the responsible party's current term? What's the over/under on 20 Trillion?
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