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  #10711  
Old 12-25-12, 21:31
Franklin Franklin is offline
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
I am sorry you don't believe in miracles. Why can't an ex-alcoholic who likes to smoke joints not win la Tour. U must be a hater.
Even though you say it in jest, I want to answer it:

I'm not a hater. I want Sky to be clean. I see that the performance itself is indeed lower than before, so it could be "believable"

But this is where facts versus faith enter the equation.

- We have many facts that show Sky has a lot of red flags at key points. We also know that these red flags always spell bad news. Again, it's quite a few of those pesky flags.
- "Believable" performance is subjective. I am a decent c-cat, if I do Alpe in 1 hour you probably should check me for doping. On the pro level the differences are small, so whereas highball numbers trigger alarms, lowball figures are no proof at all.

So the facts tell me Sky is very suspicious. What I want to be the truth simply is not relevant.
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  #10712  
Old 12-25-12, 21:38
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Netserk Netserk is offline
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Originally Posted by Franklin View Post
To sum it up, nothing has changed.

There is only confirmation of known facts. It's distressing that some people still try to handwave the Leinders thing.

Let's be very clear here.

Leinders is a doctor who managed his riders to win 2 Vuelta's (1 after the latest Heras decision), a Giro and almost won a TdF. That's nothing to sneeze at. There aren't many doctors who had the honor to have riders under his wing who win a GT every two years. Leinders might not be Ferrari, but he's obviously pretty good...

If we look at MR we know he was dirty as can be. If we look at DM we would be extremely naive to think he's clean. Considering Geert was the head medic (so he got all medical files) and was part of the management team of Rabo we already knew he was aware of the shehanigans of MR (and probably of DM). That's without looking at the Michael Rasmussen court papers (yes, years before he was hired)... The LL affidavit can't be a surprise. It's inconceivable that a team in this day and age let their stars dope on their own. It's to risky. And if anything Rabo was a team with strong management presence.

Now we go into the hiring. Geert is no virologist, nor did he do any paper on heat strokes. Also, it seems a bit weird to think he would be able to screen all the hangers on in a team to avoid incidents like the Txerra death. Let's be honest... if the goal was exhortion/heat/disease they should and could have picked up an ex-army doctor. AFAIK a rider is just a human being like anyone else, so there is no pressing need to pick leinders. In fact, for the stated reasons Leinders is the wrong choice.

And this is once again one of those areas where all the duplicity comes to light. DB has been spinning and lieing. And the really sad part is that lieing about doctors can only have so many motivators. And in cycling that motivator is always the same thing.

Now we can turn the spotlight to JRanton who pointed out that not only did the hiring of Leinders coincide with the breakthrough of Sky as GT team, but also pointed out that indeed Leinders has been the designated doctor for the core team in the build-up.

1. Leinders was hired when they knew about his past as doctor of dodgy GT winners. There is no way this can be denied.
2. This dodgy doctor then get's the GT assets under his wings.
3. These assets start to perform like they haven't done before.

And this is just one of the cornerstones of why Sky needs to be turned inside out. Leinders isn't the first Dodgy staff member (hello Yates!). Rogers (mr. Freiburg, who suddenly has left the team) cheering he never had better numbers. A Wiggins who has foresworn all his previous heartfelt declarations. The list goes on...

And make no mistake, this is no wild speculation, these are facts. Everything can be traced to court orders, affidavits, interviews, palmares.

Those who are critical of Sky base it on undeniable facts that need to be explained. And sadly it gets harder to believe there will be a "clean" explanation. Already with Leinders it seems impossible that Sky is anything other than secretive and beyond any reasonable doubt untruthful about it from the start.
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  #10713  
Old 12-25-12, 21:39
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Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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Originally Posted by Franklin View Post
I'm not a hater. I want Sky to be clean. I see that the performance itself is indeed lower than before, so it could be "believable"
Indeed, it could be believable, for top class born freaks of nature like Fignon, Hinault, LeMond of course. Not some drunk pot smoking track 4k specialist or an alien chicken lookalike.

This has Geert Leinders/Ferrari all over it. Maybe Checcini if we take it back in historical perspective, alas, the chicken came from CSC, even Bjarne didn't see his potential?
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  #10714  
Old 12-25-12, 21:42
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AcademyCC AcademyCC is offline
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Originally Posted by ebandit View Post
it would be better if members did not lay down rules for others

there are already good forum rules to adhere to
I see so much knowledge on this forum. At the same time people interrupting solid conversation.
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  #10715  
Old 12-25-12, 21:43
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ferryman ferryman is offline
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This is an excellent post; sadly it will avoid by Sky fans. They won't bother to reply to it.

The further point I'd add is Lienders never appeared at races. It was all background workings. Supposedly he was there to deal with saddle sores and heat exhaustion at races but was never at races.

Now contrast that with Prentice Steffen. Highly visible Doctor and at 90%+ of the races at Garmin.

Sadly we're in 'never tested positive" territory and we know how that ends up.
I agree Franklin's post is excellent.

Re, the bold, do you know for a fact that he wasn't physically there or just wasn't visible?
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  #10716  
Old 12-25-12, 21:46
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ferryman ferryman is offline
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
Indeed, it could be believable, for top class born freaks of nature like Fignon, Hinault, LeMond of course. Not some drunk pot smoking track 4k specialist or an alien chicken lookalike.

This has Geert Leinders/Ferrari all over it. Maybe Checcini if we take it back in historical perspective, alas, the chicken came from CSC, even Bjarne didn't see his potential?
Nooo, you can't say that Do me a favour and edit FGL. Cheers.
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  #10717  
Old 12-25-12, 21:52
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Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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Originally Posted by ferryman View Post
Nooo, you can't say that Do me a favour and edit FGL. Cheers.
Let me guess, u like beer and smoking a joint, afterwards u go to KFC?

Train serious for a year and you will win la Tour ferryman!
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Originally Posted by AcademyCC View Post
I see so much knowledge on this forum. At the same time people interrupting solid conversation.
You were dead right with that initial post.

Last edited by Fearless Greg Lemond; 12-25-12 at 21:55.
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  #10718  
Old 12-25-12, 22:16
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ferryman ferryman is offline
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
Let me guess, u like beer and smoking a joint, afterwards u go to KFC?

Train serious for a year and you will win la Tour ferryman!You were dead right with that initial post.
Yes, used to and never But go on and delete, please. It will save grief later Cheers.
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  #10719  
Old 12-25-12, 22:24
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thehog thehog is offline
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Originally Posted by ferryman View Post
I agree Franklin's post is excellent.

Re, the bold, do you know for a fact that he wasn't physically there or just wasn't visible?
I think you just answered your own question.
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  #10720  
Old 12-25-12, 23:00
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ferryman ferryman is offline
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I think you just answered your own question.
I didn't man, help me here, you are a heading for ban and I don;t want to impose it. Do you have evidence?
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