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  #621  
Old 12-25-12, 20:42
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Bexon30 Bexon30 is offline
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.

Wiggins going from.top5 tter who never won a non prologue tt to during 5 glorious months winning every single non prologue tt including the.mountain one.

Wiggins speeds at tdf and Olympics tts matching and surpassing all the doping greats.

Im shocked btw.to hear wiggins did peyresoudes.almost as fast as 07 contador and rasmussen. The argument you read in every single " wiggins won clean" article is that the times.were.slower ( always conveniently ignoring the tts )

And that's just their tour performance.



There's also.wiggins going from being anti doping doctors and pro.scepticism.in cycling to being pro doping doctors and telling sceptics that they are "bone.idle ****ers" and daring them to " say it to.his face".

There's wiggins bizzarely claiming at the tdf presentation that doping was "15 years ago" ( despite the supposedly " sickening" experience 5 years ago of being searched by police because a teammates was caught - did he forget) and equally bizzarely claiming to.have only ridden against lance in one race in 2005 ( despite the fact that his own autobiography has him and lance riding in 2009 on the cover, and despite the fact that he ciited repeatedly the experience of riding with lance in 2009 as an inspiration behind his own training and wins).

Wiggins defending lance and attacking landis as a drunk

There's sky - who.claim to.be new age anti.doping being cosy with the uci.

And what btw is the.miracle.of clean cycling doing being paisans with the likes of.vino ?

There's also sky - who.claimed to.hire only clean staff and riders bringing in the likes of yates and barry then styling themselves as ukpostal. I mean wtf.

Bailsford explaining marginal gains as working because cycling was entirely doping based and everyone was too.focused with doping to.think.about actually training before 2010, then 1 by 1 expressing shock as staff on his team are revealed as former dopers.
Then expressing shock that lance doped - if you didn't know they were doping, how could.cycling have been doping based?


Though- to be pedantic his giro tt win was not a prologue in name as it was a few metres.too.long. But it was a prologue effort

This +1.
Chicken Contador was ridiculous so as for Brad????
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  #622  
Old 12-25-12, 20:52
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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Except that there isn't. Words like 'Tenerife' are not evidence. Winning is not evidence, especially when not a single sports physiologist with any background has cast doubts on the physical parameters of the winning efforts. Employing Yates is no more evidence than employing Julich, or any number of people in Garmin and most other teams. One of my favourite riders, Zabel, doped. Can we condemn Cavendish just because he worked with Zabel? Who the hell else is there to employ? One by one even the most sacred cows are falling, not through choice but because they are forced to through solid implication by others. With Sky there has been none of this. It may come or it may not.
No. Things like the above are evidence. Not evidence that Sky doped, but that Sky's PR is full of propagandistic garbage that should be treated with the disdain it deserves.

And if we can't believe the 'attention to detail' and 'zero tolerance' PR spiel, because they've proven to be false otherwise we wouldn't have the situation we have had this offseason with guys like de Jongh leaving and guys like Yates and Rogers being quietly shuffled off so as to draw as little attention as possible, then what reason do us fans have for believing the other parts of their PR, about the marginal gains and the clean team stuff? The thing is, you may say that we ought to give the team the benefit of the doubt, but the fact is, it's hard to do that when they've already been caught lying to us in those PR spin programs. When they say they're going to be clean and they're going to be transparent, and then are found lying about multiple things (transparency being one of them, which is key), then the onus is on them to provide said transparency so that fans can actually believe the clean team stuff with the backing of something more tangible than blind faith.

As I've said many times, Brailsford made a rod for his own back at inception with Team Sky by promising several things that he couldn't realistically achieve. The fully clean team with nobody with any connection to doping ever was always going to be hard to reconcile with the 'Tour winner within 5 years' stuff. Not because they necessarily needed dope to do it, but because they needed experienced DSes, soigneurs et al, most of which will have come from the EPO era. You may believe that guys like Leinders and Rogers didn't do anything wrong at Team Sky, and that's your prerogative in the absence of any genuine evidence of wrongdoing besides guesswork based on performance level improvements. But their very presence there is a massive red flag that places additional requirements on Sky if they want people to swallow their 'clean team zero tolerance' talk whole. Because they then have to justify the presence of these characters with chequered histories within the scope of their 'zero tolerance' policy, which either entails feigning naïveté or fashioning some parameters that allow these recruitments to still fit with the team's ethos.

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Last edited by Libertine Seguros; 12-25-12 at 20:59.
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  #623  
Old 12-25-12, 20:56
Joachim Joachim is offline
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.Im shocked btw.to hear wiggins did peyresoudes.almost as fast as 07 contador and rasmussen.
So what were the times, and what are the assumptions being made in the comparisons?

I don't know. Let's pluck a figure out of the air. I'm going for BW & CF being...ooh...3 minutes slower.
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  #624  
Old 12-25-12, 21:04
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Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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obviously we had more on lance than we now have on sky.
How many years did that take?

No, we have more on Sky than on Pharmstrong in 1999.

@ Joachim: we, the public, have been made a fool of too many times, for too long. When something in cycling is almost too good to be true it often/always is too good to be true. Basso 2006, the chicken 2007, etc etc.

SKY 2012 is the same deal.
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  #625  
Old 12-25-12, 21:15
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Eh? They didn't apply common sense, they had solid circumstantial evidence, have you not read L.A. Confidentiel?.
In 'Seven Deadly Sins' Walsh recounts the story of his investigations into Armstrong. His initial misgivings were based on common sense not solid evidence.

I'm confident that many people contributing to this forum have the background to form such misgivings themselves regarding Team Sky. They may not have the contacts or the background to pursue it in the same way Walsh did, because they are not journalists, but their experience and knowledge is more than adequate to form reasoned and rational suspicions.

It's early days in the Team Sky story, I'm sure there's more to tell. For now, people with concerns must keep pressing for more scrutiny. That's the only thing they can do.
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  #626  
Old 12-26-12, 00:23
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So what were the times, and what are the assumptions being made in the comparisons?

I don't know. Let's pluck a figure out of the air. I'm going for BW & CF being...ooh...3 minutes slower.
Courtesy of JCR:

Contador/Rasmussen (2007): 23:26
Froome/Wiggins/Nibali (2012): 23:32
gruppo Evans/Kloden (2007): 24:02

I'm sure jens_attacks (who keeps a great blog with ascent times) claimed the Sky train had actually ridden the Peyresourde faster than Alberto and Chicken but I can't find his post now...

EDIT: found it:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthr...rde#post976558
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Last edited by will10; 12-26-12 at 00:25.
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  #627  
Old 12-26-12, 00:45
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Originally Posted by will10 View Post
Courtesy of JCR:

Contador/Rasmussen (2007): 23:26
Froome/Wiggins/Nibali (2012): 23:32
gruppo Evans/Kloden (2007): 24:02

I'm sure jens_attacks (who keeps a great blog with ascent times) claimed the Sky train had actually ridden the Peyresourde faster than Alberto and Chicken but I can't find his post now...

EDIT: found it:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthr...rde#post976558
Many thanks will.

What is JCR btw?
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If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
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  #628  
Old 12-26-12, 00:53
del1962 del1962 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will10 View Post
Courtesy of JCR:

Contador/Rasmussen (2007): 23:26
Froome/Wiggins/Nibali (2012): 23:32
gruppo Evans/Kloden (2007): 24:02

I'm sure jens_attacks (who keeps a great blog with ascent times) claimed the Sky train had actually ridden the Peyresourde faster than Alberto and Chicken but I can't find his post now...

EDIT: found it:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthr...rde#post976558
Wouldn't you have to take into account how previous climbs were ridden on the same stage to make accurate comparisons, had Contador/Ramussen been attacking each other on previous climbs while 2012 was ridden more tempo.

That is why it is difficult to just pluck these numbers out without context
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  #629  
Old 12-26-12, 01:09
Ferminal Ferminal is offline
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Originally Posted by del1962 View Post
Wouldn't you have to take into account how previous climbs were ridden on the same stage to make accurate comparisons, had Contador/Ramussen been attacking each other on previous climbs while 2012 was ridden more tempo.

That is why it is difficult to just pluck these numbers out without context
The stage was basically the same. In 2007 it was just the infernal pace of Dekker/Boogerd which dropped much of the bunch on Bales.

All that matters anyway is that they were slower.

Last edited by Ferminal; 12-26-12 at 01:12.
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  #630  
Old 12-26-12, 01:12
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Originally Posted by del1962 View Post
Wouldn't you have to take into account how previous climbs were ridden on the same stage to make accurate comparisons, had Contador/Ramussen been attacking each other on previous climbs while 2012 was ridden more tempo.

That is why it is difficult to just pluck these numbers out without context
I don't think.it would make.that much of a difference. But even.if it did youd still expect clean cyclists.to.be.a good 2 minutes slower. Especially when its wiggins who isn't even a natural climber.
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If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
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