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  #221  
Old 12-27-12, 20:38
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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Originally Posted by Fortyninefourteen View Post
A naturally high hematocrit actually made you less valuable to a team that would prefer to take a 39-42 guy up to 49. If you are already close, they can't really dope you.
what did that have to do with breukink. epo didn't work on riders who didn't have a high hematocrite either. like zabel.
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  #222  
Old 12-27-12, 20:45
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Susan Westemeyer Susan Westemeyer is offline
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FGL and Ryo, cool it with the insults or be prepared for a ban.

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  #223  
Old 12-27-12, 20:49
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Fortyninefourteen Fortyninefourteen is offline
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
what did that have to do with breukink. epo didn't work on riders who didn't have a high hematocrite either. like zabel.
Just stating that it might have been possible. There were some years when he (Breukink)was considered a real contender, only to get crushed by the guys that were taken from low 40's to the 49%. His gains were minimal compared to the gains that others may have derived.
The irony is that a naturally high hematocrit that would almost guarantee success in the pre-epo era, would ultimately be your undoing as of 1988-89 (?) ....

We are in agreement, by the way...
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  #224  
Old 12-27-12, 20:57
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Susan Westemeyer Susan Westemeyer is offline
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How to use the Ignore Feature
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  #225  
Old 12-28-12, 03:17
SavageKiwi SavageKiwi is offline
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Dear Wiggo : Why do you conclude that I am a fan-boy. You are free to disagree with my final conclusions - they are my opinion only and only mine. However - you cannot disagree with the data - they are facts. The trends are real and unambiguous. It is also unambiguous that LA was not the only one on the trend curves. So exactly what do you disagree with? Is your operating assumption that sport should not be fair? If cycling wants to continue be taken seriously as a sport then simply going after one guy and then stating that `` all is well again'' is simply rubbish. Are you suggesting that the sport is clean again and can continue as before by simply purging LA from the record books?
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  #226  
Old 12-28-12, 03:22
SavageKiwi SavageKiwi is offline
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I dont have the times for the Guerini climb - if someone has them I would appreciate having them. The fact that times from that year are not on the list indicates that they were not in this top 36.
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  #227  
Old 12-28-12, 03:32
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Hugh Januss Hugh Januss is offline
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Originally Posted by Dear Wiggo View Post
Look at the data. No problem. I am responding to your "conclusions are not liked". But when you realise a fanboi put a study together, you also have to acknowledge bias. His conclusions ("investigate other riders, it's NOT FAIR *pout*") are laughable and have nothing to do with the data.
No I think it is a legitimate point. Everybody was cheating, but given that and ignoring the fact that USADA is USADA and not WorldADA (oh wait that would be WADA, wouldn't it) why not go after the crook who gained the most first? I'm guessing a number of bank robbers got away during the time that Bernie Madoff was in the news, but do some people think they should have ignored him and gone after the little guys instead?
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  #228  
Old 12-28-12, 03:50
SavageKiwi SavageKiwi is offline
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No I think it is a legitimate point. Everybody was cheating, but given that and ignoring the fact that USADA is USADA and not WorldADA (oh wait that would be WADA, wouldn't it) why not go after the crook who gained the most first? I'm guessing a number of bank robbers got away during the time that Bernie Madoff was in the news, but do some people think they should have ignored him and gone after the little guys instead?
That strategy is fine - as long as it does not end after LA and efforts are made to go after everyone that is suspicious. Ending things after LA will do nothing other than change the strategy used to win. I find the UCI current attitude poor given that they have so much data and its analysis is straightforward. Their expressions of surprise and shock I found to be a joke.
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  #229  
Old 12-28-12, 04:25
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Originally Posted by SavageKiwi View Post
That strategy is fine - as long as it does not end after LA and efforts are made to go after everyone that is suspicious. Ending things after LA will do nothing other than change the strategy used to win. I find the UCI current attitude poor given that they have so much data and its analysis is straightforward. Their expressions of surprise and shock I found to be a joke.
OK try to follow along. UCI protects the superstar dopers. If you get "caught" for doping then that just means you were not big enough. Everyone is "suspicious" but the point here is to try to get UCI to go after the big stars instead of the second level guys that they have been "catching" in the past 15 years. The UCI attitude will always be wrong, they simply should not have anything to do with drug testing.
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  #230  
Old 12-28-12, 11:14
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I dont have the times for the Guerini climb - if someone has them I would appreciate having them. The fact that times from that year are not on the list indicates that they were not in this top 36.
Guerini was faster than some on the list. Have seen times of 41, 42 minutes quoted before.

The list is hardly exhaustive. In 2004, a total of roughly 153 riders beat Lemond and Hinault's given time for 2006. Ok, so it was a time trial but even so this shows that that there are some times missing. In 2004, Gonzalez, Guerini, Karpets, Basso and Moncoutie produced sub 40 minute times. (These are all calculated by assuming that every rider did the c. 1km bit of the TT on the flat before alpe d'huez in the same time as Armstrong. In reality most would have taken a few seconds longer than Armstrong but this would mean that their alpe d'huez deficit was less than shown below)

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/...esults/stage16
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