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  #381  
Old 12-27-12, 19:51
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ferryman ferryman is offline
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Originally Posted by JimmyFingers View Post
My British list:

1 Mark Cavendish has won more races than any other British rider, inc the second to win WC.

2 Tom Simpson the first to win the WC, and had his career had not been cut short by rampant drug use would be number won. The most naturally talented British rider of all time

3 Bradley Wiggins
4 Robert Millar
5 Barry Hoban
6 Chris Boardman
7 Graeme Obree
8 Brian Robinson
9 Micheal Wright
10 George Mills

Cav simply has to be number 1, for his plamares, his likely future palmares and the fact he is already regarded by many as the finest road sprinter of all time.

Obree counts, right? Granted his road career was rather short



Oh yeah Obree counts But, I think from a European RR point of view, I would have included Malcolm Elliott in there instead.
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  #382  
Old 12-28-12, 11:51
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il_fiammingo il_fiammingo is offline
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It's all about the math...

1. MERCKX, Eddy (5x TOUR; 5x GIRO; 1x VUELTA; 3x WC; 7x MSR; 5x LBL; 3x PR; 3x PN; 2x RVV; 2x GDL; 2x AGR; 1x TDS; 1x ROM; 1x DL; 1x CATAL; 3x GW; 3x FW; 3x GREEN; 2x OHV; 2x KOM; 1x SS; 1x RHT; 1x PIEM; 1x PB; 1x GPN; 1x EMIL; 34x TDFSTAGE; 24x GIROSTAGE)

2. DE VLAEMINCK, Roger (6x TA; 4x PR; 3x MSR; 2x GDL; 1x ZUR; 1x TDS; 1x RVV; 1x LBL; 2x LAZ; 1x FW; 1x 4DUNK; 2x OHV; 2x MTO; 1x VEN; 1x SS; 1x PIEM; 1x PB; 1x EMIL; 1x E3H; 1x TDFSTAGE; 22x GIROSTAGE)

3. VAN LOOY, Rik (2x WC; 3x PR; 2x RVV; 2x PT; 1x MSR; 1x LBL; 1x GDL; 3x GW; 1x FW; 4x E3H; 2x SS; 2x PB; 1x GREEN; 7x TDFSTAGE; 12x GIROSTAGE)

4. MAERTENS, Freddy (1x VUELTA; 2x WC; 1x ZUR; 1x PT; 1x PN; 1x CATAL; 1x AGR; 4x 4DUNK; 2x GW; 3x GREEN; 2x OHV; 1x SS; 1x RHT; 1x PB; 1x GPN; 1x E3H; 16x TDFSTAGE; 7x GIROSTAGE)

5. MUSEEUW, Johan (1x WC; 3x RVV; 3x PR; 2x ZUR; 1x PT; 1x AGR; 2x 4DUNK; 1x HEW; 1x 3DPK; 2x OHV; 2x E3H; 2x TDFSTAGE)

6. VAN SPRINGEL, Herman (1x ZUR; 1x PT; 1x GDL; 7x BP; 1x GW; 2x GPN; 1x OHV; 1x GREEN; 1x E3H; 5x TDFSTAGE)

7. BOONEN, Tom (1x WC; 4x PR; 3x RVV; 3x GW; 5x E3H; 2x SS; 1x PB; 1x GREEN; 6x TDFSTAGE)

8. GODEFROOT, Walter (2x ZUR; 2x RVV; 1x PR; 1x LBL; 2x BP; 1x GW; 1x 4DUNK; 1x SS; 1x RHT; 1x GREEN; 10x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)

9. VAN IMPE, Lucien (1x TOUR; 6x KOM; 9x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)

10. VAN STEENBERGEN, Rik (3x WC; 2x RVV; 2x PR; 1x MSR; 1x PB; 4x TDFSTAGE; 15x GIROSTAGE)

11. SCHOTTE, Briek (2x WC; 2x RVV; 2x PT; 2x GW; 2x PB; 1x SS; 1x TDFSTAGE)

12. DE BRUYNE, Fred (3x LBL; 2x PN; 1x RVV; 1x PT; 1x PR; 1x MSR; 6x TDFSTAGE)

13. VERBEECK, Frans (1x AGR; 1x FW; 2x OHV; 1x SS; 1x E3H)

14. GILBERT, Philippe (1x WC; 2x PT; 2x GDL; 2x AGR; 1x LBL; 1x FW; 1x CSS; 2x PIEM; 2x OHV; 1x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)

15. VANDERAERDEN, Eric (1x RVV; 1x PR; 5x 3DPK; 1x GW; 1x PB; 1x GREEN; 1x E3H; 5x TDFSTAGE)
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  #383  
Old 12-28-12, 11:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il_fiammingo View Post
It's all about the math...

1. MERCKX, Eddy (5x TOUR; 5x GIRO; 1x VUELTA; 3x WC; 7x MSR; 5x LBL; 3x PR; 3x PN; 2x RVV; 2x GDL; 2x AGR; 1x TDS; 1x ROM; 1x DL; 1x CATAL; 3x GW; 3x FW; 3x GREEN; 2x OHV; 2x KOM; 1x SS; 1x RHT; 1x PIEM; 1x PB; 1x GPN; 1x EMIL; 34x TDFSTAGE; 24x GIROSTAGE)

2. DE VLAEMINCK, Roger (6x TA; 4x PR; 3x MSR; 2x GDL; 1x ZUR; 1x TDS; 1x RVV; 1x LBL; 2x LAZ; 1x FW; 1x 4DUNK; 2x OHV; 2x MTO; 1x VEN; 1x SS; 1x PIEM; 1x PB; 1x EMIL; 1x E3H; 1x TDFSTAGE; 22x GIROSTAGE)

3. VAN LOOY, Rik (2x WC; 3x PR; 2x RVV; 2x PT; 1x MSR; 1x LBL; 1x GDL; 3x GW; 1x FW; 4x E3H; 2x SS; 2x PB; 1x GREEN; 7x TDFSTAGE; 12x GIROSTAGE)

4. MAERTENS, Freddy (1x VUELTA; 2x WC; 1x ZUR; 1x PT; 1x PN; 1x CATAL; 1x AGR; 4x 4DUNK; 2x GW; 3x GREEN; 2x OHV; 1x SS; 1x RHT; 1x PB; 1x GPN; 1x E3H; 16x TDFSTAGE; 7x GIROSTAGE)

5. MUSEEUW, Johan (1x WC; 3x RVV; 3x PR; 2x ZUR; 1x PT; 1x AGR; 2x 4DUNK; 1x HEW; 1x 3DPK; 2x OHV; 2x E3H; 2x TDFSTAGE)

6. VAN SPRINGEL, Herman (1x ZUR; 1x PT; 1x GDL; 7x BP; 1x GW; 2x GPN; 1x OHV; 1x GREEN; 1x E3H; 5x TDFSTAGE)

7. BOONEN, Tom (1x WC; 4x PR; 3x RVV; 3x GW; 5x E3H; 2x SS; 1x PB; 1x GREEN; 6x TDFSTAGE)

8. GODEFROOT, Walter (2x ZUR; 2x RVV; 1x PR; 1x LBL; 2x BP; 1x GW; 1x 4DUNK; 1x SS; 1x RHT; 1x GREEN; 10x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)

9. VAN IMPE, Lucien (1x TOUR; 6x KOM; 9x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)

10. VAN STEENBERGEN, Rik (3x WC; 2x RVV; 2x PR; 1x MSR; 1x PB; 4x TDFSTAGE; 15x GIROSTAGE)

11. SCHOTTE, Briek (2x WC; 2x RVV; 2x PT; 2x GW; 2x PB; 1x SS; 1x TDFSTAGE)

12. DE BRUYNE, Fred (3x LBL; 2x PN; 1x RVV; 1x PT; 1x PR; 1x MSR; 6x TDFSTAGE)

13. VERBEECK, Frans (1x AGR; 1x FW; 2x OHV; 1x SS; 1x E3H)

14. GILBERT, Philippe (1x WC; 2x PT; 2x GDL; 2x AGR; 1x LBL; 1x FW; 1x CSS; 2x PIEM; 2x OHV; 1x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)

15. VANDERAERDEN, Eric (1x RVV; 1x PR; 5x 3DPK; 1x GW; 1x PB; 1x GREEN; 1x E3H; 5x TDFSTAGE)
You count Vierdaagse van Duinkerke for Museeuw, but not Tour of Qatar. Vierdaagse van Duinkerke lost most of its prestige in the '80s and '90s.

I don't think anyone really cares about HEW Cyclassics. Also AGR had a different finish back then, Museeuw would've never won it on the current route.

You're also forgetting to count Vuelta stages. Philbert won 4 of them for example. For a classics specialist I would argue it's more prestigious to win a Vuelta stage than a Giro stage. Giro rarely attracts the best classic specialists while the Vuelta has most of them these days.

Also Paris-Tours was a World Cup event back in Museeuw's day. It's sadly just a 2.HC race nowadays. I hope it becomes WT again, but with the UCI and ASO you never know...

And I'm still figuring out how according to your "math" Frank Verbeeck finishes higher than Gilbert who won better races.
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horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
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Originally Posted by The Hitch
Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 12-28-12 at 12:13.
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  #384  
Old 12-28-12, 12:02
Cyril25 Cyril25 is offline
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Kiryienka
Siutsou
Hutarovich
Usau
Samoilau
Kuchynski
Kunitski
Seniushkin

The others were not pros
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  #385  
Old 12-28-12, 15:23
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il_fiammingo il_fiammingo is offline
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Originally Posted by El Pistolero View Post
You count Vierdaagse van Duinkerke for Museeuw, but not Tour of Qatar. Vierdaagse van Duinkerke lost most of its prestige in the '80s and '90s.

I don't think anyone really cares about HEW Cyclassics. Also AGR had a different finish back then, Museeuw would've never won it on the current route.

You're also forgetting to count Vuelta stages. Philbert won 4 of them for example. For a classics specialist I would argue it's more prestigious to win a Vuelta stage than a Giro stage. Giro rarely attracts the best classic specialists while the Vuelta has most of them these days.

Also Paris-Tours was a World Cup event back in Museeuw's day. It's sadly just a 2.HC race nowadays. I hope it becomes WT again, but with the UCI and ASO you never know...

And I'm still figuring out how according to your "math" Frank Verbeeck finishes higher than Gilbert who won better races.
The reason I took Dunkirk into account is because it has proven it's historical value (exists since 1955, many great winners). Qatar has not (yet). Qatar only became a HC race this year and still wears the tag "preparation for the classics". I certainly don't agree on Dunkirk losing its prestige during the 80-90's. Museeuw, Roche, Hinault, Mottet show the opposite IMO.

Adding the Vuelta stages is certainly on my list but I don't think this will change a lot.

Verbeeck slightly precedes Gilbert (2400 vs 2345pts) because his numerous 2nd and 3rd places compensate the wins of Gilbert. Verbeeck has a large "Michael Boogerd factor". To give you some examples: 4 podiums @ LBL; 5 @ Frankfurt, 5 @ FlecheW.
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  #386  
Old 12-28-12, 15:32
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Originally Posted by il_fiammingo View Post
The reason I took Dunkirk into account is because it has proven it's historical value (exists since 1955, many great winners). Qatar has not (yet). Qatar only became a HC race this year and still wears the tag "preparation for the classics". I certainly don't agree on Dunkirk losing its prestige during the 80-90's. Museeuw, Roche, Hinault, Mottet show the opposite IMO.

Adding the Vuelta stages is certainly on my list but I don't think this will change a lot.

Verbeeck slightly precedes Gilbert (2400 vs 2345pts) because his numerous 2nd and 3rd places compensate the wins of Gilbert. Verbeeck has a large "Michael Boogerd factor". To give you some examples: 4 podiums @ LBL; 5 @ Frankfurt, 5 @ FlecheW.
During the '90s the Vierdaagse van Duinkerke was merely a race to start racing again after a break from the spring classics. Tour of Qatar on the other hand has always attracted some of the finest cyclists in the world. I still remember the fourth stage of this year's Tour of Qatar. Now that was a race.

I personally think winning is more important than getting second and third places. You wouldn't really say Boogerd was better than Gilbert either would you?

Paris-Brussels today shouldn't give as many points in your ranking for example than a Paris-Brussels of 40 years ago.
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hitch
Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 12-28-12 at 15:37.
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  #387  
Old 12-28-12, 16:14
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Originally Posted by il_fiammingo View Post
14. GILBERT, Philippe (1x WC; 2x PT; 2x GDL; 2x AGR; 1x LBL; 1x FW; 1x CSS; 2x PIEM; 2x OHV; 1x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)

15. VANDERAERDEN, Eric (1x RVV; 1x PR; 5x 3DPK; 1x GW; 1x PB; 1x GREEN; 1x E3H; 5x TDFSTAGE)
Seen them both race and they are incomparable. Vanderaerden was class, his whole carreer, not just one year. Maths don't always add up, you know. But good you took Eric up in your list!
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  #388  
Old 12-28-12, 16:57
Echoes Echoes is offline
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[...]


My Belgian list:

Eddy Merckx (...)
Roger De Vlaeminck (consistent and versatile)
Rik Van Looy (a bit less versatile than De Vlaeminck but great attacking rider)
Herman Van Springel (very underrated, versatile and consistent)
Rik Van Steenbergen (more talented than above mentioned riders but rode only for the money. A big waste)
Walter Godefroot (very fast and consistent)
Louis Mottiat (the specialist of very long races, the best Walloon ever)
Frans Verbeeck (brave, laborious and loyal opponent to Merckx often lost but could benefit from the rivalry between Merckx and De Vlaeminck)
Freddy Maertens (very talented but too short a career probably because of doping)
Brik Schotte (brave rider, the last "Flandrien" and so strong)

I could add Raymond Impanis (record of finished Paris-Roubaix) or Frans Bonduel (the most consistent of the 1930's) or Patrick Sercu for the track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by il_fiammingo View Post
Verbeeck above Maertens & Schotte?? Van Springel above Van Steenbergen??

How can you ever justify that? Verbeeck had a hard time winning races ("only" 2x Het Volk, Amstel, Fleche Wallonne, E3) and is defenitely not in the same leage as the other 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes
Verbeeck had trouble to win races but he rode in a very strong era. He was always present in every races. Many good results in classics and he was not afraid to duel Merckx. The Flanders' from 1975 was awesome. I think he deserves a lot of credit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by il_fiammingo
Verbeeck slightly precedes Gilbert (2400 vs 2345pts) because his numerous 2nd and 3rd places compensate the wins of Gilbert. Verbeeck has a large "Michael Boogerd factor". To give you some examples: 4 podiums @ LBL; 5 @ Frankfurt, 5 @ FlecheW.
Here below the FABULOUS Frans Verbeeck palmares (according to my stats):

10 Francfurt 1964 1
2 Francfurt 1965 1
9 Paris-Brussels 1965 2
2 Paris-Tours 1969 2
4 Union GP 1969 1
8 Flanders 1969 2
8 Liège-Bastogne 1969 2
9 Belgium 1969 1
10 Ghent-Ghent 1969 1
Ghent-Ghent 1970 3
2 Liège-Bastogne 1970 4
3 Overijse 1970 1
4 Flanders 1970 4
4 Francfurt 1970 1
5 Luxembourg 1970 1
6 Belgium 1970 1
6 Paris-Roubaix 1970 3
6 Arrow 1970 2
6 Amstel 1970 2
6 Paris-Tours 1970 2
8 Worlds 1970 2
9 Milan-Sanremo 1970 2
Amstel 1971 3
2 Arrow 1971 4
3 Liège-Bastogne 1971 4
3 Lombardia 1971 4
4 Belgium 1971 1
4 Midi-Libre 1971 1
6 GPE3 1971 1
6 Dunkirk 1971 1
6 Luxembourg 1971 1
6 Schelde GP 1971 1
7 Paris-Tours 1971 2
8 Worlds 1971 2
10 Wevelgem 1971 2
Ghent-Ghent 1972 3
3 Flanders 1972 4
4 Tirreno 1972 1
4 Milan-Sanremo 1972 4
4 Lombardy 1972 4
5 GPE3 1972 1
6 Union GP 1972 1
7 Amstel 1972 1
8 Worlds 1972 2
16 France 1972 3
2 Tirreno 1973 1
2 Wevelgem 1973 2
2 Amstel 1973 1
2 Liège-Bastogne 1973 4
2 Dunkirk 1973 1
2 Paris-Brussels 1973 2
3 Arrow 1973 4
3 Paris-Tours 1973 2
4 Union GP 1973 1
5 Brabant 1973 1
6 Milan-Sanremo 1973 2
6 Belgium 1973 1
6 Paris-Roubaix 1973 3
7 Flanders 1973 2
8 Dauphiné 1973 1
9 Ghent-Ghent 1973 1
9 Lombardy 1973 2
10 Francfurt 1973 1
Walloon Arrow 1974 9
2 Brabant 1974 1
2 Flanders 1974 4
2 Luxembourg 1974 1
3 GPE3 1974 1
3 Francfurt 1974 1
3 Zurich 1974 1
3 Midi-Libre 1974 1
4 Ghent-Ghent 1974 1
5 Lombardy 1974 4
6 Schelde GP 1974 1
6 Paris-Brussels 1974 2
6 Agostoni 1974 1
7 Paris-Tours 1974 2
8 Milan-Sanremo 1974 2
9 Tirreno 1974 1
10 Liège-Bastogne 1974 2
Tour of Luxembourg 1975 2
GPE3 1975 2
2 Flanders 1975 4
2 Wevelgem 1975 2
2 Arrow 1975 4
2 Francfurt 1975 1
2 Netherlands 1975 1
3 Belgium 1975 1
4 Liège-Bastogne 1975 4
4 Zurich 1975 1
4 Paris-Tours 1975 2
5 Ghent-Ghent 1975 1
5 Schelde GP 1975 1
5 Paris-Brussels 1975 2
6 Tirreno 1975 1
6 Brabant 1975 1
Tour of Luxembourg 1976 2
Schelde GP 1976 2
2 Arrow 1976 4
2 Francfurt 1976 1
2 Agostoni 1976 1
3 Brabant 1976 1
3 Wevelgem 1976 2
3 Liège-Bastogne 1976 4
4 Bordeaux-Paris 1976 1
5 Med Tour 1976 1
7 Paris-Brussels 1976 1
7 Lombardy 1976 2
8 Ghent-Ghent 1976 1
9 Amstel 1976 1
9 Flanders 1976 2
9 Zurich 1976 1
10 Belgium 1976 1
10 Paris-Roubaix 1976 3
Brabant Arrow 1977 2
3 Francfurt 1977 1
5 Med Tour 1977 1
6 Zurich 1977 1
7 Belgium 1977 1
7 Liège-Bastogne 1977 2
8 Flanders 1977 2
9 Arrow 1977 2
10 Paris-Nice 1977 2
Total 234



He was terrific! Definitely among my favourite past riders. So unlucky.

Merckx said "I could teach cycling to anybody but to Verbeeck." Always present and he lost ... always lost. But how consistent ! The guy who started cycling in the 60's and then stopped to resume his job as milkman before realizing he was better off cycling and resumes his career to gather an impressive series of high placing and wins too. His Flanders '75 "he was 5kmh too fast for us" lol. And also his Liège '73, when everybody thought he finally got one until the finish photo gave it to Merckx.

And then after his career he founded Vermarc, the textile factory manufactoring jerseys for many teams, and even in track & field.

A true legend. He deserves an awful lot of credit !!

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  #389  
Old 12-28-12, 18:35
Echoes Echoes is offline
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Last anecdote on Frans Verbeeck. At the start of one season he was training at the French Riviera where he would win a handful of nice races like Cannes GP or Monaco GP. Once their was a heavy rain and folks from a hotel saw someone riding a bike out there and would have a laugh at this fool, until they realized it was Frans Verbeeck, then they were in awe.

A hard man like you no longer make any.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XT2KXxF1QE


My top10 from some traditional countries:

Italy:

1 Felice Gimondi (you read me!)
2 Fausto Coppi
3 Francesco Moser
4 Gino Bartali
5 Fiorenzo Magni
6 Giuseppe Saronni (don't like the guy, but still a champion)
7 Alfredo Binda
8 Franco Bitossi (so underrated)
9 Gianbattista Baronchelli
10 Costante Girardengo

France:

1 Bernard Hinault
2 Jacques Anquetil (I hate him but well..)
3 Raymond Poulidor
4 Louison Bobet
5 Laurent Fignon
6 Henri Pélissier
7 Charly Mottet
8 Octave Lapize
9 Louis Trousselier
10 Gustave Garrigou

Spain

1 Miguel Indurain (grrrr)
2 Miguel Poblet
3 Pedro Delgado
4 Marino Lejarreta (RIP nephew Iñaki )
5 Federico Bahamontes
6 Luis Ocaña
7 Miguel-Maria Lasa
8 Joachim Rodriguez
9 Carlos Sastre
10 Francisco Galdos

Netherlands

1 Joop Zoetemelk
2 Hennie Kuiper (those who rank him lower, care to explain)
3 Jan Janssen
4 Jan Raas
5 Adrie van der Poel
6 Gerrie Knetemann
7 Johan van der Velde
8 Steven Rooks
9 Michael Boogerd ...
10 Wim van Est

Switzerland

1 Ferdi Kübler
2 Fabian Cancellara
3 Heiri Suter
4 Hugo Koblet
5 Oscar Egg
6 Pascal Richard ...
7 Michel Frederick
8 Rolf Graf
9 Beat Breu
10 Stefan Mutter

Germany (yes it is a traditional country, with loooong history)

1 Rudi Altig
2 Dietrich Thurau
3 Rolf Wolfshohl
4 Hans Junkermann
5 Rolf Golz
6 Steffen Wesemann
7 Josef Fischer
8 Gregor Braun
9 Ludwig Geyer
10 Klaus-Peter Thaler (OK that's because I'm a cyclocross fanatic, otherwise Röbl or Stöpl)

Luxembourg

1 Nicolas Frantz
2 François Faber
3 Charly Gaul
4 Andy Schleck
5 Kim Kirchen
6 Mathias Clemens
7 Jang Goldschmitt
8 Edy Schutz
9 Marcel Ernzer
10 Jean Majerus
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  #390  
Old 12-28-12, 19:08
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is online now
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Didn't know him. Great Eastern champion apparently. What really happened in 1955?

Shame he couldn't mix it up with Westerners.
The sad lot of many great cyclists, being forgotten entirely. I mean, Szurkowski's greatest achievements were left off the list of justifications for picking him as the greatest Polish cyclist - four Peace Races, back when they meant something too, as opposed to when Wesemann eclipsed that record. Sure, guys from the time of the Wende could continue their career in the pros and we could see what they were made of (Uwe Ampler, Olaf Ludwig, Djamolidine Abdoujaparov, Lech Piasecki et al), but there's a whole bunch of riders from before those days whose contribution to the history of the sport is all but forgotten. A guy like Täve Schur, for example, should be on any self-respecting list of the top 10 German cyclists. A favourite of that type of mine is Sergey Sukhoruchenkov, perhaps the finest climber the Ostbloc produced, and a legit claim for #1 on the list of Russians, along with quite a few of the time.
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