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  #10851  
Old 12-28-12, 14:53
Fearless Greg Lemond's Avatar
Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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Originally Posted by Joachim View Post
Something of value would be nice. Certainly better than petty attempts at point-scoring.

Sorry, but don't bother responding to my posts anymore. I really can't be bothered with wasting time.
I repeat: patriottism is boring.

But, you have been a keen follower of cycling for 30 years and you yet are not able to see the fraud at Sky.

It is the other way around, people should not respond to your postings and waste their time on people who do have an open mind.
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  #10852  
Old 12-28-12, 14:55
Franklin Franklin is offline
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There were a lot of those 'mountain attacks we all enjoy' in the full on EPO era, weren't there. Can't think why. Curiously, Wiggins can't launch those attacks, he has to let them go and then grind his way up at a consistent pace, staying out of the red and limiting his losses. For this, he is condemned as having no panache and being boring and yet apparently this is also the style of the archetypal doper.

You couldn't make it up if you tried
Miguel Indurain is clean since he didn't attack in the mountains.
Menchov is clean since he doesn't attack in the mountains.

Laurent Fignon was full on Epo in 1984 and 1989

doesn't work this way.

But let me be very clear about one thng as you obviously didn;t watch cycling back then: In the 80's there were a ton more attacks in the mountains. What you saw in the Epo era was a completely different ball game.

Quote:
1. cycling pre-1990 was regularly doped - Coppi doped, Anquetil doped, mercx doped. Kelly and Roche doped. And none of those guys did it for their complexion -well, maybe coppi.

2. Many of the mountain attacks of the era were 'superhuman', both in power and frankly quantity.

3. don't assume what other posters know. you'll invariably make a fool of yourself (a lesson learned the hard way).
Considering a lot of that was Amphetamines it's extremely and utterly questionable how that would have helped. The most effective drug might have been cortico-steroids, but that has it's limited use (recovery!).

Cycling isn't an explosive sport, which is why steroids don't do what they did for other sports. Epo was the first drug that had an impact on the cardiovascular system, which affects endurance.
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  #10853  
Old 12-28-12, 15:16
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will10 will10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Joachim View Post
It is indeed. The problem with this forum is it is about doping, purely. Therefore it is most attractive to people who want to talk about doping, and naturally that revolves around accusations. In essence, it is self-referential, and it has already developed its own set of truisms that people accept unquestioningly.

Which is ironic, given that anyone who points out that paradigms are being built upon shakey assumptions is immediately labelled as unquestioning (or just labelled 'troll', 'fanboy', or whatever puerile epithet they can come up with to stop you from questioning their view).
And yet almost all of your posts on this forum have been in the Clinic. C'mon man, this has gone on too long, we know you've been here before, can't you put us out of our misery?
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...[Walsh] thinks we're ahead of the curve. But think about it for a sec. We're building long-lasting, trusting relationships with people who are spending a lot of money - Coke, Nike, Subaru. If we're f***ing lying, we can kiss it all goodbye. And if we were lying we'd do some stupid stuff to try to cover it up, wouldn't we? Does anybody think for a second that a secret that big wouldn't come out? Bill Stapleton
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  #10854  
Old 12-28-12, 15:22
sideshadow sideshadow is offline
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Is there a summary of points for/against SKY doping? There’s certainly no evidence but I’ll try to arrange from strong to weak points. I can think of the following, feel free to add.

For doping:
1) Dr. Geert Leinders and Dr. Fabio Bartalucci. We know the story, both dope doctors hired after SKY’s abysmal 2010 performance.
2) Their dismissal. If SKY had nothing to hide, why fire them AFTER they won the tour?
3) Their performance. This seems like a major point in some people’s arguments, it’s sad in a way that our sport has come to this, questioning performance. We all saw it, dominant in the mountains, dominant in the time trials. People say Wiggins never attacked like a doper, but certainly he didn’t need to. Froome TTing faster than Cancellara was weird for me.
4) Undedectable AICAR. No one can argue that SKY had the skinniest riders, personally I can’t think of any riders with lower BMI’s.
5) Team policy, more importantly changes of policy. Not hiring from outside UK, not hiring personnel with known doping past, certainly changed quickly.

Neither here nor there:
1) Froome’s ‘incurable’ bilharzia, making his blood passport useless. Praziquantel cures more than 85 percent of individuals, retreatment of patients with residual infections results in cure in more than 80 percent.
2) Wiggins’s behaviour also seems a big issue for some. Eg. Calling trolls the C word, ‘never raced against Armstrong’, trying to pay less taxes etc.

Against doping:
1) Everything else.
2) No evidence.
3) British riders don’t dope.
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  #10855  
Old 12-28-12, 15:30
Joachim Joachim is offline
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@Will. You don't know anything about me, nor will you ever. Besides, what has where I post got anything to do with anything?

Attacking the poster. Yes, we all know why people resort to that.
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  #10856  
Old 12-28-12, 15:34
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Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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Originally Posted by Joachim View Post
Attacking the poster. Yes, we all know why people resort to that.
Semantics.

Quote:
Something of value would be nice. Certainly better than petty attempts at point-scoring.

Sorry, but don't bother responding to my posts anymore. I really can't be bothered with wasting time
Please keep trolling.
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  #10857  
Old 12-28-12, 15:52
Franklin Franklin is offline
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Originally Posted by sideshadow View Post
SNIP
Pretty much sums it up.

But there's a tangent that disappears in this black and white dope/not doped discussion.

I simply do not accept Sky's policies on hiring. Be they clean or not, a team hiring a person as Geert Leinders needs to have it's management scourged from the sport. And yes, smaller teams hiring the like of Dr. Menuet should get the same treatment.

I can grudgingly accept letting riders with a murky past behind the wheel of the cars, but doctors and higher management... hell no. One strike, out.

And yes, I'm the powerless don quichotte, but as long as more people feell like me, chances are we get heard. Ad yes, this forum does carry a tiny bit of weight.
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  #10858  
Old 12-28-12, 16:01
sideshadow sideshadow is offline
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@Franklin. I agree. We should look to the past, after LA won his first tours there was no evidence and less speculation, but when Lemond and Walsh found out he was working with Ferrari, this was enough for them. They were right.

I love this quote:

“What could a doctor, completely unknown to the organization, offer that I can’t or won’t? Doping is the fairly obvious answer.” - Prentice Steffen, after he was let go by USPS.
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  #10859  
Old 12-28-12, 16:40
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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Originally Posted by Joachim View Post
Wild speculation= Clinic 'fact'.
quoted for truth
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  #10860  
Old 12-28-12, 16:44
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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Originally Posted by Parrulo View Post
oh the good old "only doped riders are able to attack on the mountains" argument. . .

is like saying "i like to act like some sort of cycling expert but actually i have no idea how cycling was like pre-1990"
that's even more stupid. pre 1990 riders rode entire seasons. gt riders all had bmi's that are now impossible to win gt's with except evans. the 90s not only gave doping, it also gave specalisation for certain races. now riders select the races they want to win and build around that. you can't compare the 80s to now in anything except that both era's are relatively clean
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