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  #731  
Old 12-30-12, 10:58
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Or, if not max torque, at least some torque? And, how and why would anyone seriously argue that applying negative torque anywhere around the circle is part of an optimal technique?


Sorry Frank, it has to be max torque there or none because otherwise you cannot merge top and down forces for one extended power stroke. Applying independent unequal forces will result in an overall loss of torque. You are nearly there, all you are missing is the knack of generating that max torque across the top. It's generated and applied in exactly the same way as indoor tug o'war men do it as they apply that forward/downward force to the mat from their shoes and that force can be many times more powerful than what the most powerful cyclists use in their downstroke. That kicking type action which you referred to cannot generate effective crank torque. Concentrate only on that over the top/down stroke and instant unweighting and drawing back of foot from 5 o'c.
  #732  
Old 12-30-12, 14:41
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Nice infomercial. But like most informercials is not based in science and is just a sad tired joke.


Best thing you could do is get yourself a pair of Powercranks, learn and memorize the objectives of circular pedaling, then perfect it without the PC's. It's only a short step from there to the semi circular style, the perfect technique which experts claim does not exist.
  #733  
Old 12-30-12, 17:05
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Best thing I do is keep following the published research on all aspects of cycling to find the real best practices a cyclist can adopt. Ones that lead to real gains as opposed to one persons delusions or the marketing of a training gimmick.
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  #734  
Old 12-30-12, 18:08
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Sorry Frank, it has to be max torque there or none because otherwise you cannot merge top and down forces for one extended power stroke. Applying independent unequal forces will result in an overall loss of torque. You are nearly there, all you are missing is the knack of generating that max torque across the top. It's generated and applied in exactly the same way as indoor tug o'war men do it as they apply that forward/downward force to the mat from their shoes and that force can be many times more powerful than what the most powerful cyclists use in their downstroke. That kicking type action which you referred to cannot generate effective crank torque. Concentrate only on that over the top/down stroke and instant unweighting and drawing back of foot from 5 o'c.
Phooey. I would submit that tug o'war men are putting more force down into the ground (their full body weight) than they are horizontally. Until you show it is actually possible to apply "maximum" torque parallel to the ground your arguments are going to fall on deaf ears. At least, with one of the soon to be available 2nd gen PM's this will be available to you. I look forward to seeing it. Until then I will continue to believe the most powerful cycling torque will come from effective use of the anti-gravity muscles in the direction against gravity (in an upright bicycle).
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  #735  
Old 12-31-12, 00:11
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Phooey. I would submit that tug o'war men are putting more force down into the ground (their full body weight) than they are horizontally. Until you show it is actually possible to apply "maximum" torque parallel to the ground your arguments are going to fall on deaf ears. At least, with one of the soon to be available 2nd gen PM's this will be available to you. I look forward to seeing it. Until then I will continue to believe the most powerful cycling torque will come from effective use of the anti-gravity muscles in the direction against gravity (in an upright bicycle).

They need that downward force for traction purposes, as they apply their forward force to the mat which will force their body backwards and pull their opponents towards them. A cyclist does not have to worry about this traction, he has cleats to take care of that. That's why this technique was possible from the time cleats were introduced into cycling and it is said Anquetil had his own special cleats.
  #736  
Old 12-31-12, 01:50
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They need that downward force for traction purposes, as they apply their forward force to the mat which will force their body backwards and pull their opponents towards them. A cyclist does not have to worry about this traction, he has cleats to take care of that. That's why this technique was possible from the time cleats were introduced into cycling and it is said Anquetil had his own special cleats.
Perhaps, but IMHO the muscles and joints are not optimized to apply force in that direction. Further, gravity augments the forces going down due to the weight of the leg being added to the pedal torque. It simply is not reasonable to assert that maximum torque can be applied at the top of the stroke. A reasonable torque can be applied there but not maximal torque, IMHO.
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  #737  
Old 12-31-12, 11:25
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Perhaps, but IMHO the muscles and joints are not optimized to apply force in that direction. Further, gravity augments the forces going down due to the weight of the leg being added to the pedal torque. It simply is not reasonable to assert that maximum torque can be applied at the top of the stroke. A reasonable torque can be applied there but not maximal torque, IMHO.

Gravity effect is taken care of by the alternate use of the arms with the right bars which supply the necessary resistance for that forward/downward force. Natural pedalers can't use their arms to assist in generating torque because they area applying only a downward force. A cyclist is only using a fraction of the force that is possible with this technique and it is surprising how easily this technique can be used when the cranks get turning. It also demonstrates how easily equally powerful forward and downward forces can be merged or used together.
  #738  
Old 12-31-12, 12:19
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Gravity effect is taken care of by the alternate use of the arms with the right bars which supply the necessary resistance for that forward/downward force. Natural pedalers can't use their arms to assist in generating torque because they area applying only a downward force. A cyclist is only using a fraction of the force that is possible with this technique and it is surprising how easily this technique can be used when the cranks get turning. It also demonstrates how easily equally powerful forward and downward forces can be merged or used together.
In perfecting this technique you are aiming for an earlier and earlier start across the top until you get a simultaneous starting and ending of both power strokes and total elimination of the dead spot sector.
  #739  
Old 12-31-12, 17:10
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In perfecting this technique you are aiming for an earlier and earlier start across the top until you get a simultaneous starting and ending of both power strokes and total elimination of the dead spot sector.
From the study that started this thread, what you describe should be very powerful. But you take their finding to the very extreme and insist it is the ONLY way. Only when you show everyone that you can actually do what you think you do then, perhaps, you might be taken more seriously. Until then I will continue to believe that just increasing the torque across the top is an enviable goal for most cyclists.
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  #740  
Old 12-31-12, 17:33
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From the study that started this thread, what you describe should be very powerful. But you take their finding to the very extreme and insist it is the ONLY way. Only when you show everyone that you can actually do what you think you do then, perhaps, you might be taken more seriously. Until then I will continue to believe that just increasing the torque across the top is an enviable goal for most cyclists.
Both your arguments suffer from a lack of data which is very sad because the ability to test your positions has been available for over 30 years.
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