Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012) - Page 298 - Cyclingnews Forum

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  #2971  
Old 01-01-13, 16:30
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Fearless Greg Lemond Fearless Greg Lemond is offline
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Because at that point you start dealing with a state issue, not a sporting one. That won't fly.
That is what I am talking about, muchos gracias. Isn't administring doping mailpractice - or what is the correct spelling - to a degree a doctor will loose his licence? You do not drug patients just to make them ubermensch, or doesn't the oath of H. work that way?
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In Italy only.
And in tennis.
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  #2972  
Old 01-01-13, 16:43
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[QUOTE=Fearless Greg Lemond;1102435]That is what I am talking about, muchos gracias. Isn't administring doping mailpractice - or what is the correct spelling - to a degree a doctor will loose his licence? You do not drug patients just to make them ubermensch, or doesn't the oath of H. work that way?[QUOTE]

You are extrapolating punishment from an -ada or whatever for breaking sporting rules to the ability of a doctor to work with a license obtained from another entity, under a whole different set of rules and potential ethical parameters. This is not workable and would be lawsuit heaven, and be a nightmare to even enforce over borders.

And, who says what they are doing is malpractice, in all cases? For example, is administering drugs to return physiological parameters to the 'normal' range malpractice? This ethical example has been an ongoing discussion in these forums for years. Being against the rules in a bike race does not necessarily equate to malpractice in real life.
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  #2973  
Old 01-01-13, 16:46
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I can't help wondering how hard it would be for the UCI to require any personnel employed to be accredited. You can't just wander into the TdF village or caravan without it, how is the sport any different. That way a dodgy doc, ds or any other support person could then be excluded easily. Not rocket science.
Mate of mine wandered into TdF village at 2012 tour Pyrennees stage without accreditation.
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  #2974  
Old 01-01-13, 16:59
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You are extrapolating punishment from an -ada or whatever for breaking sporting rules to the ability of a doctor to work with a license obtained from another entity, under a whole different set of rules and potential ethical parameters. This is not workable and would be lawsuit heaven, and be a nightmare to even enforce over borders.

And, who says what they are doing is malpractice, in all cases? For example, is administering drugs to return physiological parameters to the 'normal' range malpractice? This ethical example has been an ongoing discussion in these forums for years. Being against the rules in a bike race does not necessarily equate to malpractice in real life.
Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? A criminal offence I belief? And, lets not forget the doping trade, isn't that the same as drug trade? The French think it is. They are quite hardcore in that way [even a gram of hashies is a criminal offence, a bit overdone in my book, but, okay].

I am not saying this is THE sollution to the doping problem but a lot can be done in regard with the team doctors, let alone the 'outside consultants'.

To your last remark regarding the natural levels: yes, I don't think that should be a problem, vitame ABC untill Z are fine by me. My dad used to drug me before every soccer match with an 'overdose' of Vitamine C. I rocked!
Everything else is doping, the cyclist is not sick, he is just fatigued, who wouldnt be? Take him of his bike when he is in no position to continue racing, he is knocked out. What does a doctor in the boxing ring do when his 'patient' is not able to continue? Throw the towel, that is what cycling docs should do in my [call it naive] book.
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  #2975  
Old 01-01-13, 17:09
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Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? A criminal offence I belief? And, lets not forget the doping trade, isn't that the same as drug trade? The French think it is. They are quite hardcore in that way [even a gram of hashies is a criminal offence, a bit overdone in my book, but, okay].

I am not saying this is THE sollution to the doping problem but a lot can be done in regard with the team doctors, let alone the 'outside consultants'.

To your last remark regarding the natural levels: yes, I don't think that should be a problem, vitame ABC untill Z are fine by me. My dad used to drug me before every soccer match with an 'overdose' of Vitamine C. I rocked!
Everything else is doping, the cyclist is not sick, he is just fatigued, who wouldnt be? Take him of his bike when he is in no position to continue racing, he is knocked out. What does a doctor in the boxing ring do when his 'patient' is not able to continue? Throw the towel, that is what cycling docs should do in my [call it naive] book.
i think much of this is sorted out differently from country to country. It gets really messy here. Prescriptions, doping vs. drugs, quantities, etc.

wouldn't be bad to have a thread sorting out which anti-doping laws hold in which country, and have a special look at the regulations in those countries where teams are based. I know Spain's antidoping laws got a bit stricter recently, but how strict exactly that I don'T know.
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  #2976  
Old 01-01-13, 17:17
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Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? *snip for brevity*.
If you think it is workable for some -ada for the UCI who finds some doctor breaking their rules to work out agreements with various medical licensing boards around the world to revoke the license of that doctor, while resolving all legal ramifications that comes with that, then more power to you.

I cannot explain the problem your idea presents any clearer than I already have. With that, I am sure you will feel free to continue to discuss your epiphany in here with like minded posters interested in the well-being of the sport. Perhaps you can write the ada's and UCI an email explaining your idea, and they will fall over eachother trying to figure out why they didn't think of it before.
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  #2977  
Old 01-01-13, 17:46
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If you think it is workable for some -ada for the UCI who finds some doctor breaking their rules to work out agreements with various medical licensing boards around the world to revoke the license of that doctor, while resolving all legal ramifications that comes with that, then more power to you.

I cannot explain the problem your idea presents any clearer than I already have. With that, I am sure you will feel free to continue to discuss your epiphany in here with like minded posters interested in the well-being of the sport. Perhaps you can write the ada's and UCI an email explaining your idea, and they will fall over eachother trying to figure out why they didn't think of it before.
I do feel u don't exactly agree with me

No problem Chris. In a Big Brother society it must be possible to take out the bad apples in sport medicine.
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  #2978  
Old 01-01-13, 17:55
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Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? A criminal offence I belief?
At PED's level, definitely not in the U.S. It may be against the law, but meaningless penalties, or generally the law is unenforceable. There's a class of drugs ex. morphine that it is a straight-up criminal offense because they are both powerful and addictive. As a general comment specific to the U.S. drug laws and their penalties are generally divided by social class. Severe penalties are legislated for drugs that are not used by the elite.


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a lot can be done in regard with the team doctors, let alone the 'outside consultants'.
Not really. In Ferrari's case he's a Phd, not an MD. Pepe Marti is just some guy that sourced the PED's. It gets worse than that. The help in body building forums is very good and bleeding edge innovative if you post prepared. It's uncontrolled human experimentation, but that hasn't slowed anything down. None of the knowledge is secret either.

And then there's the simple fact the IOC passively encourages doping. Just don't get caught. Check out the case of Mark Block. http://www.letsrun.com/2012/block-0701.php A medalling athlete talked openly of being close friends with Block during his ban RIGHT AFTER WINNING her event. I've not seen such a quick admission to doping for a medal before and not a peep from her federation because she was pulling in the viewers. A past IOC president publicly argued for legalizing PED's. The IOC is fueling the doping across many sports.

Last edited by DirtyWorks; 01-01-13 at 18:04.
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  #2979  
Old 01-01-13, 18:00
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I do feel u don't exactly agree with me

No problem Chris. In a Big Brother society it must be possible to take out the bad apples in sport medicine.
No, in a sane society people would realize there are all types of reasons to cheat or allow cheating, and it can only be contained and not eradicated. Protecting the accused and being wary of power and knowing limits of what is reasonable sometimes get lost in this hypothetical cesspool. Sometimes that means somebody cheating wins. So be it.
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  #2980  
Old 01-02-13, 02:35
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No, in a sane society people would realize there are all types of reasons to cheat or allow cheating, and it can only be contained and not eradicated. Protecting the accused and being wary of power and knowing limits of what is reasonable sometimes get lost in this hypothetical cesspool. Sometimes that means somebody cheating wins. So be it.
Hopefully you mean more than that...like "in an egalitarian society there are rules, and although cheaters, liars and deviants will test the system that society outlines the rules will prevail. Once rules are broken the 'cheaters' will be punished to the extent of those rules."

A little different than...'Sometimes that means somebody cheating wins. So be it.'
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