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  #811  
Old 01-03-13, 05:28
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Originally Posted by kuoirad View Post
Pardon my mostly-off-topic question for CoachFergie - you mentioned being happy about the ban for lycra shoe covers on indoor tracks, that you'd been leery of them as a commissaire (sp?). Could you elaborate on that? Just curiosity on my part.
Sarcasm. With all that is going on in cycling that lycra booties should be banned seems ludicrous.
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
  #812  
Old 01-03-13, 08:56
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^ wrong there Fergie. Armstrong used booties, and we all know what that led to. Soon the whole peloton are on them then it trickles down to the domestic ranks and then down to amateurs. Then every cyclist is going to their doctor looking for a booties prescription.

Rampant bootie usage is a blight on the noble sport of cycling.

Don't get me started on aero helmets or seat level-ness.
  #813  
Old 01-03-13, 09:03
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Yes, I have heard rumours that riders on USPS and Discovery were coerced into using booties and if they refused were not given starts in major events. Apologies for making light of such a serious situation.
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
  #814  
Old 01-03-13, 11:27
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Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
.... although SRM offer a model that allows this for erg testing. Although quite impractical for field testing especially in competition.
The SRM variable length crank arms are quite usable on road, they are just super beefy/heavy (and would need to be fitted on a standard pro SRM model).
  #815  
Old 01-03-13, 16:18
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Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
Yup I have force vector studies dating back to the 70s. The link is for a product I first laid my hands on in 2011.
That doesn't mean the technology has been available to the ordinary user. And, these were so "technical" they were frequently out of commission - at least that was what I was told when I talked to some people at the UC Davis (who have done some of those early studies) when I asked about coming up to be able to do some testing and gather some data. Further, apparently many of these places only have one, making the assumption that the right and left dynamic will be the same.

And, I have been aware of an exercise bike out of Europe (The Excalibur I believe it is called) that has had this capability for many years as I saw it about 10 years ago. However, the bike cost something like $35-50k with all the bells and whistles, as I remember, and I don't know a single person with one nor have I ever seen it being referenced as being used in a study that I can remember. And, of course, as I remember, this bike did not have the ability to change crank length no compare regular cranks to PowerCranks since the mechanism was in the cranks. And, of course, it is not possible for me to prove anything because anyone would rightfully see me as biased so I am forced to rely upon others. Here might be your chance to shine but, even though you state how easy it is to get this equipment to do the testing, you don't have the equipment. And, I think many might see you as also biased ruining your chance to do the world a favor and becoming a hero by scientifically proving me a fraud. LOL

You make light of how easy you think it should be to prove some of our musings. If that were the case it would be just as easy for you to disprove them. Where is that work? Instead you simply come here and make noise, lots of noise. With all the time you have wasted making your assertions wouldn't it have been better spend taking that time to have just proved your contention? Then you could be easily done with me. But, then, what would happen with your obsession?
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  #816  
Old 01-03-13, 16:46
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Frank,

You seem to keep forgetting that you're the one touting a product that you sell and are making what many of us think are rather outrageous claims as to the effectiveness of this product. In this case it would seem the burden of proof rests rather squarely on your shoulders.

That said, I'm pleased to see the development of this new power meter and feel that it will make it easier for the masses to study the influence of various pedaling techniques. Sadly for you, I expect that this will quickly show what many of us have long felt to be true

The software that the unit uses to inspect torque with each crank rotation looks a bit pricy for the common man. Perhaps I missed it but I didn't happen to see mentioned that the Icrank software sifts out non-tangential torque and quantifies it so that it can be compared to the tangential torque and used as a measure of effectiveness of pedaling. Seems as if we had a bet running on that which I'd already conceded but may now need to reevaluate.

Last edited by sciguy; 01-03-13 at 19:34.
  #817  
Old 01-03-13, 18:04
coapman coapman is offline
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Originally Posted by FrankDay View Post
Until then I will continue to believe the most powerful cycling torque will come from effective use of the anti-gravity muscles in the direction against gravity (in an upright bicycle).


You did some HPV work, how does peak torque of a HPV rider (across the top ?) compare to peak torque of an upright rider.
  #818  
Old 01-03-13, 18:05
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Originally Posted by Alex Simmons/RST View Post
The SRM variable length crank arms are quite usable on road, they are just super beefy/heavy (and would need to be fitted on a standard pro SRM model).
I had one fall apart on a rider in track racing but for testing purposes they would be fine.
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
  #819  
Old 01-03-13, 18:21
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Originally Posted by FrankDay View Post
That doesn't mean the technology has been available to the ordinary user. And, these were so "technical" they were frequently out of commission - at least that was what I was told when I talked to some people at the UC Davis (who have done some of those early studies) when I asked about coming up to be able to do some testing and gather some data. Further, apparently many of these places only have one, making the assumption that the right and left dynamic will be the same.
You mean to say that you conned Cadel Evans or Poalo Bettini into using a Gimmickcrank but you can't talk a sport science student into doing a some basic testing? Weak!

Quote:
And, I have been aware of an exercise bike out of Europe (The Excalibur I believe it is called) that has had this capability for many years as I saw it about 10 years ago. However, the bike cost something like $35-50k with all the bells and whistles, as I remember, and I don't know a single person with one nor have I ever seen it being referenced as being used in a study that I can remember.
Put your money where your mouth is!

Quote:
And, of course, as I remember, this bike did not have the ability to change crank length no compare regular cranks to PowerCranks since the mechanism was in the cranks. And, of course, it is not possible for me to prove anything because anyone would rightfully see me as biased so I am forced to rely upon others.
Nice dodge. Many companies fund or carry out their own research, much of it is published as long as it is properly acknowledged.

Quote:
Here might be your chance to shine but, even though you state how easy it is to get this equipment to do the testing, you don't have the equipment. And, I think many might see you as also biased ruining your chance to do the world a favor and becoming a hero by scientifically proving me a fraud.
I am very content with the research that has been performed. My area of research is tracking performance over a period with a power meter. I am clearly biased towards science and against Snake Oil salesmen.

Quote:
You make light of how easy you think it should be to prove some of our musings. If that were the case it would be just as easy for you to disprove them. Where is that work? Instead you simply come here and make noise, lots of noise. With all the time you have wasted making your assertions wouldn't it have been better spend taking that time to have just proved your contention? Then you could be easily done with me. But, then, what would happen with your obsession?
They are disproved every day and measured with a first generation power meter. No change in power from changing crank length and no significant change in power from trying to change pedal technique. It amuses me watching you continue to fight your lost cause.
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
  #820  
Old 01-03-13, 18:44
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Anyone with a Power Meter can test different applications of force around the pedal stroke. Very easy to do. But why would you when the research has been performed and shown the magnitude of performance gains are non-existent.

Even the basis for this thread is non-existent.

The authors you quote at the start of another Frank Day train wreck wrote this in EJAP soon after they published the first study...

Quote:
Contrary to Leirdal and Ettema (2010), we do not find a significant relationship between DC and GE.
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
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