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  #2731  
Old 01-08-13, 10:57
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maybe not as good as saxo (just maybe) but certainly better then leopard "oh look my 2 supposed mountain doms are getting dropped by o'grady" trek

as good as saxo were most of their strength came from their leaders like in 08 with the schlecks, sastre and canc and 09 with the schlecks and canc. in 2010 saxo was already much less impressive then on 2009 since they lost frank and their most impressive team show during the entire race was on the cobbles with cancellara. CAS is imo overrated, there i said it, show me one time where he did something closely resembling what guys he is compared too have done (smzd, navarro, kyrienka and so on). voigt is still great tho.

on paper the shack now can form a team for a GT just as strong as saxo back in those years. are we supposed to forget the less then impressive teams saxo was sending to the giro and vuelta in order to be at their A game the tour?

put guys like machado, monfort, gallopin, kiserlovski and canc in the tour with the schlecks (most likely only andy next year) as leader and the team will certainly be as strong as any saxo bar 08.

You haven't read the post on two pages before:

Frank Schleck a likely ban
Cancellara has stated he is gonna skip the Tour
Kiserlovi has stated he wants to do Giro d'Italia
Machado I bet he'll do Giro or Vuelta

So the likes of Horner, Voigt, Kloden, Popo, Zubeldia, Monfort and Gallopin will be the core, "still notable but weaker than the Teams Andy had at Leopard 2011 and Saxo 2008-2010" I said some post before. And I repeat; this is having in mind the whole SKY team, and some good teams like Saxo, BMC and even Movistar.

Froome, Contador and Cadel Evans are better TT riders by far. If he hasn't got the advantage of a superior team like years before. How the hell is gonna take the victory, a victory that can avoid the extinction of the team at the end of the year

Last edited by Forunculo; 01-08-13 at 11:00.
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  #2732  
Old 01-08-13, 11:05
18-Valve. (pithy) 18-Valve. (pithy) is offline
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Frank Schleck a likely ban
In July? Hummm.

I wouldn't put too much $ on that.
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  #2733  
Old 01-08-13, 11:10
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Parrulo Parrulo is offline
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you are the one not reading properly. i said "on paper" you could make that young and strong team because on the old days CSC had weak teams at the giro to be at their best at the tour.

i also used those guys just to show how even without the old guys that can have bad years, the team is still very strong.

and you go again with leopard in 2011. . . did you even watch the tour that year? fuglsang, monfort(who only did anything that tour on galibier stage) and gerdeman which were supposed to be the team mountain doms got dropped on the tourmalet by stuart o'grady. if that's one of the strongest teams in the peloton then every team is one of the strongest teams in the peloton.

hell at the bottum of luz ardiden leopard had voigt with the schlecks and saxo still had 4 domestiques with contador!!!!

you are also massively overrating the team strength in 2010 and 2009 confusing the strength of the team leaders with the strength of the actual team doms.

watching cas pacing groups of 30 riders on both years isn't an exactly impressive mountain display by the team super dom.

astana reducing the race to contador and schleck using only the team doms on the madeleine is what super job done by the doms looks like.

Last edited by Parrulo; 01-08-13 at 11:12.
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  #2734  
Old 01-08-13, 11:45
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you are the one not reading properly. i said "on paper" you could make that young and strong team because on the old days CSC had weak teams at the giro to be at their best at the tour.

i also used those guys just to show how even without the old guys that can have bad years, the team is still very strong.

and you go again with leopard in 2011. . . did you even watch the tour that year? fuglsang, monfort(who only did anything that tour on galibier stage) and gerdeman which were supposed to be the team mountain doms got dropped on the tourmalet by stuart o'grady. if that's one of the strongest teams in the peloton then every team is one of the strongest teams in the peloton.

hell at the bottum of luz ardiden leopard had voigt with the schlecks and saxo still had 4 domestiques with contador!!!!

you are also massively overrating the team strength in 2010 and 2009 confusing the strength of the team leaders with the strength of the actual team doms.

watching cas pacing groups of 30 riders on both years isn't an exactly impressive mountain display by the team super dom.

astana reducing the race to contador and schleck using only the team doms on the madeleine is what super job done by the doms looks like.

You are the one contradicting yourself. If the team leader, Andy, is gonna do the Tour and not the Giro or Vuelta I couldn't care less what team they send there. Are Euskaltel fans worried about Paris-Roubaix line up? So my aim is what helpers are going with the team leader to do one of the team goals, le Tour de France.

About Fuglsang I'm not going to discuss because you and I think probably the same about him. But Monfort did what Paulinho has done last vuelta, win or nearly win the entire race for his captain.

If you are talking about O'grady, Voigt, Cancellara and Frank they are the half a team can send to a GT, so don't tell me they're leaders, they are super-doms for the leader and I don't care if 20 riders of the roster are even worse than Noval.

Luz Ardiden stage was pretty clear an example of what I'm saying, Leopard burn Voigt and O'grady and Andy still had Frank. The 4 Saxo domestique were quickly dropped and Contador needed help around that time. About CAS yes he is a decent domestique but nothing more and Navarro since that performance ZERO.

I can't believe you told me not count Cancellara, Voigt, O'grady, Frank and even Sastre to check the overall level of that teams. So If I not count Froome, Porte and Rogers I should say SKY had a weak team at mountains last Tour with Eisel and Cav dropped everytime the peloton touched a slope
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  #2735  
Old 01-08-13, 12:23
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ok you don't get it.

moving on then
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  #2736  
Old 01-08-13, 12:51
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ok you don't get it.

moving on then
Yes I get it, you are talking about despite the bright of Cancellara and Frank, the likes of CAS, Gerdeman, Fuglsang and Posthuma were vastly overrated and I agree with you.

But the likes of Kloden, Horner or Zubeldia are not much better and you lose armony and unity (very important to Andy) and decisive performances from Cancellara or Frank. So despite the hypothetical gain in numbers or depth, the lost in quality is lethal to Andy chances.


And I repeat, all of this is having in mind the whole SKY, Saxo and BMC. What about the heroics from Cancellara at the TTT, Devolder is the man? And who is/are the rider(s) to stay at Andy side till the very end. Because if he is going to challenge Froome and Contador the last 4-6 km of the clims losing 3 minutes at least at the TTs is not a good deal to win. He would need to play tactics like he did at Galibier in 2011.

IMHO Andy has worst cards this year when he needs it more than ever.

If this is not the topic then move on

Last edited by Forunculo; 01-08-13 at 12:53.
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  #2737  
Old 01-08-13, 14:25
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Originally Posted by Forunculo View Post
And I repeat, all of this is having in mind the whole SKY, Saxo and BMC. And who is/are the rider(s) to stay at Andy side till the very end. Because if he is going to challenge Froome and Contador the last 4-6 km of the clims losing 3 minutes at least at the TTs is not a good deal to win. He would need to play tactics like he did at Galibier in 2011.
Ok, I'll comment on what I've quoted from you.

The Sky Train worked well at last years' tour but it didn't have to work against Contador or Schleck. BMC were not that great in last year's Tour, Evans was weaker and older but Van Garderen showed promise to be a leader as he certainly doesn't know how to ride as a domestique. Saxo were impressive in the Vuelta and with their new recruits should do well on paper.

Sky aren't going to win this year's Tour by riding tempo when Contador and Schleck are competing.

Once Andy puts in a dig on a climb, which of the other teams' domestiques can stick with it? None of them, and it only leaves the favorites. So, why does Andy need anyone to stay with him until the end of climbs? He needed it on that Galibier only because of the situation that he put himself in. And it was a good tactic which worked well but was too late in the race to be truly effective.

On form he is quite capable of sticking with Contador. It will be interesting to see if Froome can replicate his last Tour form for this year's one.
Andy has done well on climbs without any teammates before. I hope Frank doesn't ride the Tour as it might prevent Andy from looking over his shoulder for his brother. Also, Andy needs to grow a set of balls and try to compete on each stage rather than just looking for that one stage where it might be possible to put 1-2 minutes into his closest competitors.
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  #2738  
Old 01-08-13, 14:58
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Right now is more plausible Froome and Contador are going to be at 100% while Andy not, because his doing since the last stage of TdF 2011. If Froome is on the league of Contador and Schleck is something we have to discover. The train was for Wiggo not for Froome, and it's very unlikely Andy putting enough time on Froome, Contador and Evans face to face on the last 5 km of climbs to nulify 2 TTs and at the TTT has no Cancellara.


So that logic let one outcome for Andy in order to win the race. Bold moves like galibier 2011. Has a good team? yes. Enough to overcome SKY? No. And even Saxo? Maybe not.

Andy needs something where he is better than Evans, Froome and Contador combined.

Climbing: the best scenario is equal to Contador

TT: Next point please

Team strenght: At best scenario equal than Saxo and SKY (we have to see how Brailsford split the team between Giro and Tour, but there is enough depth) and not much better than BMC.


We are talking about a team who needs a very good result to justify it's existence and invest. Hurt because 2012 events with sponsorship ending at the end of the year and an owner who doesn't want to invest more money.
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  #2739  
Old 01-08-13, 15:22
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IMHO Andy has worst cards this year when he needs it more than ever.
I don't agree since as Parrulo stated Leopard wasn't a strong team in 2011, especially since Fränk wasn't a super dom, he was a co-captain which had a big impact on the development of the tour. Horner, Zubeldia, Klöden and Rohregger on form are much better mountain doms than Gerdemann, Fuglsang and Monfort from 2011 even if they are out of form.

Though I have to add that the chances to win in 2013 are worse because of his injury in 2012 and the strength of Sky, a team that only looked for Uran after Wiggins' crash.
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  #2740  
Old 01-08-13, 15:31
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To me, it's obvious that Andy would have had the strongest team if he had started the Tour. Radioshack were generally better than Sky but they had no leader. I don't see any reason why they won't be able to have the strongest on the climbs squad in this year's Tour.
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