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  #471  
Old 01-14-13, 03:42
abbaskip abbaskip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemson Cycling View Post
I am from the United States so here is my list (its going to be a little rough since I am not great on my cycling history)

1. Lance Armstrong
2. Greg Lemond
3. Andrew Hampsten
4. Levi Leipheimer
5. Christian Vande Velde
6. George Mount
7. Bobby Julrich
8. George Hincapie
9. David Zabriskie
10. Davis Phinney

Unhonorable Mention
1. Floyd Landis
2. Tyler Hamilton
3. Scott Moninger
Hehe, funny to see this opening post now. Poor Flandis and Tyler cop un (dis?)honourable mentions, but Lance, Levi, CVV, Julich, Hincapie and Zabriskie get off scot free!?
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  #472  
Old 01-14-13, 09:34
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il_fiammingo il_fiammingo is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
While most scoring systems used in rating riders like this tend to oversell the GTs, I think by rating Paris-Nice the same as the Vuelta and by rating the Classics higher as well (plus with Paris-Nice giving 9 points and País Vasco only 2, the same as the Giro del Friuli or Overijse) you're overcompensating the other way.

Also, because points go for rankings, then somebody who got a number of placements without ever really threatening a win over several years could easily wind up rating higher than somebody like a José Manuel Fuente who shone really brightly but whose peak was pretty short. Your ranking gives too much reward for the guys who make up the bunch coming in behind the solo winner or winner's group. I appreciate you love yourself some Classic one-day racing, but coming 4th in the Trofeo Laigueglia or 9th in Züri-Metzgete should not be giving as many points as 2nd in Amstel Gold or 2nd in the Volta a Catalunya, at least back then.

Also, until recently with the UCI points system, placements were pretty irrelevant, especially in one-day races, so there were few people who would ride for the 9th and 10th places that get them some nice bags of points for this ranking. It also prejudices the list in favour of longevity, so a guy like Joop Zoetemelk, legendary though he was, is liable to be elevated simply because he was around long enough to accumulate a larger palmarès than many.
IMO the baseline of a point system should be: 2 monuments = 1 TDF.
Reason: the best one day specialist often wins 2 classics a year. The best stage rider normally wins the TDF.
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  #473  
Old 01-15-13, 18:12
Echoes Echoes is offline
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About the baseline for my system.

Here below my system for the 1990-2012 part:

A: Winner: 20pts 2nd to 5th: 8 6th to 10th: 6 11th to 15th: 4 16th to 20: 3 21st to 30th: 2

Tour of France 1990-…
*3pts for Stage wins; Mountain: 1st: 3; 2nd and 3rd: 1

B Winner: 16 2nd to 5th: 7 6th to 10th: 4 11th to 15th: 3 16th to 25th: 2

Tour of Italy 1990-…
Tour of Spain 1990-…
*2pts for Stage win; 1pt for Mountains


D Winner: 12 2nd to 5th: 5 6th to 10th: 3 11th to 20th: 2

Paris-Roubaix 1948-…

E Winner: 10 2nd to 5th: 4 6th to 15th: 2

Milan-Sanremo 1990-…
Tour of Lombardy 1990-…
Ličge-Bastogne-Ličge 1990-…

F Winner: 9 2nd to 5th: 4 6th to 15th: 2

Paris-Nice 1990-…
Tour of Flanders 1990-…
World Championship 1990-…

H Winner: 6 2nd to 10th: 2

Paris-Tours 1990-…
Amstel Gold Race 2003-…
Ghent-Wevelgem 1990-…
Walloon Arrow 1990-…
Olympic Road Race 1996-…

I Winner: 4 2nd to 5th: 2 6th to 10th: 1

Tour of Switzerland 1990-…
Dauphiné libéré 1990-…
Tour of Romandy 1990-…

J Winner: 3 2nd to 10th: 1

Amstel Gold Race 1990-2002
Championship of Zurich 1990-2006
Midi-Libre 1990-2002
Tirreno-Adriatico 1990-…
Ghent-Ghent Circuit (Het Volk/Nieuwblad) 1990-…
World Championship Cyclocross 1990-…
ITT World Championship 1994-…
ITT Olympic Event 1996-…

Winner: 2 2nd to 10th: 1

Tour of the Basque Country 1990-…
Catalan Week 1990-2005
Clasica San Sebastian 1990-…
Milan-Turin 1990-…
Tour of Emily 1990-…
Harelbeke/E3 GP 1990-…
Tour of Andalucia 1990-…
Tour of Belgium 1990-…
Three Varesine Valleys 1990-…
Tour of Lazio 1990-…
Hamburg Cyclassic 1998-…
Tour of Luxembourg 1990-…
Tour of California 2006-…
Tour of Oman 2010-…
Four Days of Dunkirk 1990-…
Tour of Haut-Var 1990-…
Laigueglia Trophy 1990-…
Americas GP 1990-1992
Wincanton/Leeds/Rochester Classic 1990-1997
Lunel GP 1991
Montreal GP 2010-…
Quebec GP 2010-…
Tour of Beijing 2011-…
Tour of Poland 2005-…
Tour of Germany 2005-2008
International Criterium 1990-…
Brabant Arrow 1990-…
Track World Championships or Olympics 1990-…
MTB Olympics or World Championships 1990-...
Nation GP 1990-2004
Baracchi Trophy 1990-1991
Tour of Emily 1990-…
Tour of the Netherlands/Low Countries 1990-…
Tour of the Basque Country 1990-…
Tour of Catalunya 1990-…
Mediterranean Tour 1990-…
Tour of Piedmont 1990-…
Dunkirk 1990-…
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  #474  
Old 01-15-13, 18:38
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LaFlorecita LaFlorecita is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
About the baseline for my system.

Winner: 2 2nd to 10th: 1

Tour of the Basque Country 1990-…
Tour of Luxembourg 1990-…
Tour of Germany 2005-2008
Tour of the Netherlands/Low Countries 1990-…
Mediterranean Tour 1990-…
[/SIZE]
No. Just no.
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  #475  
Old 01-15-13, 18:54
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Descender Descender is offline
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The winner of the Ruta del Sol gets the same points as the winner of the Basque country? Lol.
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  #476  
Old 01-15-13, 22:30
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If your willing to provide us with a laugh show us the workings out of how Haimar Zubeldia gets ahead of Vino.
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  #477  
Old 01-15-13, 23:08
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Sylvester Sylvester is offline
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Twentieth place in Paris - Roubaix > second place in the Tour of the Basque Country

Winning the Tour of the Basque Country = 10th place in Paris - Tours

5th in Milan - Sanremo = 6th in the Giro >>> winning the ITT Worlds

I'd say anything is possible.
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  #478  
Old 01-15-13, 23:59
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happytramp happytramp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
Thank you this more respectful criticism (compared to the previous ones).

I would say it all depends on the system. I, myself was rather surprised by many results. But you can easily fiddle with it and make one rider pass the other.

I'd just say that the point classifications in GT's do not count for me. The reason being that I already count stage wins and I didn't want to give twice a reward for the same performance.

With regards to Coppi, he's penalized by his era. I had to downgrade the Italian races up until the 50's, approximately. They were an all-Italian affair, with a depleted field.

Kelly, TT World champion? When?
Firstly, fair play for all the effort you've put in.

Sorry I said TT world championship because I couldn't think of the Grand Prix des Nations at the time. (effectively the same thing i believe, right?)
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  #479  
Old 01-16-13, 00:21
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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While your impassioned defences of the history of Paris-Nice and Milan-San Remo do not go unheard, suggesting that in the last 22 years Paris-Nice has been worth five times as much as País Vasco and three times as much as the Tour de Suisse is delusional. And to suggest that Oman, a pre-season tune-up with one relevant GC stage, and even then that only after the first edition, is on the same level as País Vasco, is pure craziness that is an insult. País Vasco, one of the toughest and most beloved short Tours with passionate support and an illustrious history, is no more important than a three year race in the desert in front of no fans and which doesn't even have live coverage?

As I said, I see two very severe flaws in the ranking system.

1) it is heavily weighted towards Classics, when, as one-day races, it is easier to accumulate a palmarès of them since you could race a large number of them in the time it takes to accumulate the points for one stage race;
2) it puts a high value on placings, which will result in a large number of people who had little effect on races accumulating good points by being able to place 2nd in the sprint for 8th place at, say, Gent-Wevelgem or the Ronde, and also means that longevity comes with a higher value than victories. In the case of a guy like Zoetemelk, they're guys that deserve to be at the business end of any ranking, but you'll find guys who never won a major classic but came 4th in a bunch of semi-classics suddenly appear higher in the listings than people who burnt very brightly but not for very long, e.g. Fuente, but the latter will be far more memorable in the history of the sport.

In 25 years, Nick Nuyens will be better known (for reasons other than Lance Armstrong at least) than George Hincapie, because Nuyens won de Ronde. Hincapie, however, was accumulating placements for a longer period of time whilst sticking to his patented "wait-for-the-race-to-develop" approach, and will still rank higher in this list.
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  #480  
Old 01-16-13, 00:37
Jakob747 Jakob747 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capablanca and me View Post
Bálint Szeghalmi, yepp!, forgot him, but no class as Bodrogi

just look at this list:
Hungaryan TT CH:
1996. Bodrogi László AC Bisontine
1997. Bodrogi László AC Bisontine
1998. Bodrogi László VC Lyon-V.V
1999. Víg Aurél Compensario Cuoio
2000. Bodrogi László Mapei Quick Step
2001. Bodrogi László Mapei Quick Step
2002. Bodrogi László Mapei Quick Step
2003. Bodrogi László Quick Step Davitamon
2004. Bodrogi László Quick Step Davitamon
2005. Szekeres Csaba P Nivó Betonexpressz 2000 Kft SE
2006. Bodrogi László Credit Agricole
2007. Bodrogi László Credit Agricole
2008. Bodrogi László Credit Agricole

"It's a shame that Hungary doesn't have that level of cycling history, and quite strange"
I remember hyping Balazs Rothmer at the start of the new millennium. He had a much broader rider-repertoire than L. Bodrogi.

If my memory serves me correct he finished 12th at the 2001 Baby-Giro. I remember he went well on the mountain stage to Prato di Campoli won by Emil Arnel.

Too bad he didn't turn out all that great in the end though! Still decent rider.
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