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  #1  
Old 01-16-13, 21:25
BroDeal BroDeal is offline
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Default T&R, good for everyone?

I am always up for good T&A, but what would be the result of a cycling T&R?

Does Ricco get to race again?

Does Landis get his Tour win back?

Does Armstrong get his wins back?

Does Bruyneel continue to manage teams?

Does Dr. Ferrari get to coach riders?

Last edited by BroDeal; 01-16-13 at 23:30.
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  #2  
Old 01-16-13, 21:31
martinvickers martinvickers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroDeal View Post
I am always up for good T&A, but would would the result of a cycling version be?
Quote:
Does Ricco get to race again?
No, for his own bloody safety.

Quote:
Does Landis get his Tour win back?
No. The sh!t he did to lemond rules that out. If he makes some go away money from the lawsuit, fair enough.

Quote:
Does Armstrong get his wins back?
He'll be damn lucky to keep his liberty, never mind his titles. Willing to compromise just a little on that if he spills completely a.la. statute of limitations

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Does Bruyneel continue to manage teams?
No. Direct to Jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect £200

Quote:
Does Dr. Ferrari get to coach riders?
Dr. Ferrari gets a nice prison cell with a friendly biker with needs.

And yes, that means I loathe Bruyneel and Ferrari even more than Armstrong - at least Armstrong was risking his own health, as wll as everyone elses, and broke no hypocratic oath.
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  #3  
Old 01-16-13, 21:39
enCYCLOpedia enCYCLOpedia is offline
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That's not the way an amnesty works in such a situation. If you've already been caught, you don't benefit form it. Only if you confess to something that has not yet been found out, you can expect amnesty in return (provided that you don't reoffend - if you do, your previous violations still count against you).
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  #4  
Old 01-16-13, 21:58
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroDeal View Post
I am always up for good T&A, but would would the result of a cycling version be?

Does Ricco get to race again?

Does Landis get his Tour win back?

Does Armstrong get his wins back?

Does Bruyneel continue to manage teams?

Does Dr. Ferrari get to coach riders?
No, with T & R, amnesty is only given in return for full disclosure about yourself and the activities of others.

So for example Eugene De Kock who was part of a death squad during the Apartheid era did confess and named others, but he still received 212 years in jail.

The point is that you still have to punish the offenders. This is one of the key non-negotiables if the process is to have any credibility for the victims and the wider population. So for example, there is no point in letting Dertie Cont, or Wiggins fess up and then receive no punishment for their past crimes. They may receive a reduced ban in return for their confession.

The point is that the incentive to confess is that if they don't then they receive a more severe punishment.

Punishment is for the most part aimed at the most senior actors in the process. So McQuaid, Hog, etc would receive a greater level of punishment than say a neo-pro who was doing what he was told.

The worse case is the 'Spanish solution' which is amnesty and amnesia, which is where no one gets punished apart from those who want to investigate the crimes of the past.

Generally, places that have had more rigorous transitional justice have been more successful post transition than those that haven't.
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Old 01-16-13, 22:02
ChewbaccaD ChewbaccaD is offline
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I saw "T&A" and came in here looking for something I have not found yet. Really disappointed.
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  #6  
Old 01-16-13, 22:16
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Benotti69 Benotti69 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
No, with T & R, amnesty is only given in return for full disclosure about yourself and the activities of others.

So for example Eugene De Kock who was part of a death squad during the Apartheid era did confess and named others, but he still received 212 years in jail.

The point is that you still have to punish the offenders. This is one of the key non-negotiables if the process is to have any credibility for the victims and the wider population. So for example, there is no point in letting Dertie Cont, or Wiggins fess up and then receive no punishment for their past crimes. They may receive a reduced ban in return for their confession.

The point is that the incentive to confess is that if they don't then they receive a more severe punishment.

Punishment is for the most part aimed at the most senior actors in the process. So McQuaid, Hog, etc would receive a greater level of punishment than say a neo-pro who was doing what he was told.

The worse case is the 'Spanish solution' which is amnesty and amnesia, which is where no one gets punished apart from those who want to investigate the crimes of the past.

Generally, places that have had more rigorous transitional justice have been more successful post transition than those that haven't.
It will be a very small peloton if all participated who sinned.

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Originally Posted by ChewbaccaD View Post
I saw "T&A" and came in here looking for something I have not found yet. Really disappointed.
Try the yellow rose, must be cheaper rates now their #1 client is on the run.
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  #7  
Old 01-16-13, 22:22
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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It will be a very small peloton if all participated who sinned.
Yes, this is one of the arguments against TJ - and this is why you have a clear, transparent process of establishing the truth. The 'truth' part of T & R enables the reconciliation aspect. It enables you to see clearly who are the instigators and the drivers of the abusive period, it also allows you to work out who were swept up in the tide.

Armstrong still gets a life ban, but some guy who never made it and doped because he feared for his job gets a lesser sentence.

You punish everyone who sinned, but the degree of punishment depends on the crime, the degree of remorse and the extent of the confession.

Would a small peloton necessarily be a bad thing if it is a peloton free from the likes of Riis, Zabel, Brailsford, Ferrari, Armstrong, Wiggins, Frodo?
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  #8  
Old 01-16-13, 22:26
Dazed and Confused Dazed and Confused is online now
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It took 18 months or so to nail Contador after a positive test. After 6 months the Luxembourg fed is still trying to decide about Schleck's positive. A T&A process would never work in cycling. We will have people dying of old age getting it done.
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  #9  
Old 01-16-13, 22:37
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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Originally Posted by Dazed and Confused View Post
It took 18 months or so to nail Contador after a positive test. After 6 months the Luxembourg fed is still trying to decide about Schleck's positive. A T&A process would never work in cycling. We will have people dying of old age getting it done.
Not necessarily true.

Contador took 18 months because the Spanish fed, the UCI etc all slowed the process down to enable their golden boy to race.

A successful T & R requires funding and a desire to uncover the past.

On a different scale this is the resources the South African state deployed post-apartheid

For anyone who is interested - it might help to clarify some of the confusion about what T & R entails and the extent that T & R has to cover:

TRC had its own investigative unit & witness protection scheme. ie separate from the authorities - in the case of cycling it would be from outside cycling

AC considered amnesty applications. To qualify two preconditions required: the crime had to be associated with a political objective and to give full disclosure.

Applied to members of political organizations, liberation movements or state security forces. Had to be engaged in the struggle or countering resistance.

If eligible for amnesty the motive, nature and context of the act was considered. Anyone acting for personal gain didn’t qualify for amnesty, except if they received money or anything of value for being an informer.

Crimes motivated by personal malice, ill will or spite not granted amnesty. If the crime violated human rights a public hearing had to be conducted .

Once granted any record of the conviction was expunged. The persons name and information about the act was published in the Govt Gazette.

R&R made policy recommendations on restoring the dignity of victims.

Investigative Unit consisted of 60 investigators from the police, legal profession & human rights organizations. Plus 12 investigators from foreign police forces.

Carried out investigations, subpoenaed & questioned those appearing before the TRC. Had authority to seize or retain any evidence or objects relevant to the investigation. Had a Witness Protection Programme to protect those who wished to testify and were in danger.150+ witnesses joined the program

Held 120+ hearings throughout SA, c4,000 victims testified.

Addressed accountability for human rights abuse more broadly by examining the roles played by professions and institutions in resisting or facilitating human rights abuse. Held hearings on the role of the medical & legal professions under apartheid and focused national attention on professional codes of conduct.

Supervised the collection of 22,000+ victim statements.

Supervised the gathering of evidence on violations of human rights. Helped uncover the fate of hundreds of victims whose deaths and disappearances had remained mysteries. Identified patterns of abuse such as the widespread torture of detainees held without trial. As a result of the disclosures made in amnesty applications, the identities of those responsible for hundreds of deaths have now been revealed.

####

In essence for T & R to work - it has to be far reaching, it has to have a clear framework established for punishment, it has to have clearly defined goals both physically and also ideologically. It also has to be well funded and well organized. T & R is much more than a confessional hearing on TV where the accused is wheeled out, confesses to a few things, gets punished and is never seen or heard of again and everyone goes back to how it was before.
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Last edited by Mrs John Murphy; 01-16-13 at 22:47.
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  #10  
Old 01-16-13, 22:51
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T&A?

the Yellow Rose variety? B grade exploitation films, male gaze, visual attraction in narrative cinema, or truth and amnesty?
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