Go Back   CyclingNews Forum > Cafe > General

General Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #12831  
Old 01-18-13, 11:56
aphronesis aphronesis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
Most countries to differing degrees are free-market economies, which does not mean that there aren't centre-left governments running them.
Never mind most, can you name a few?
Reply With Quote
  #12832  
Old 01-18-13, 12:20
Ferminal Ferminal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 16,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
Most countries to differing degrees are free-market economies, which does not mean that there aren't centre-left governments running them.
But "free markets" are a theoretical construct, how much economic activity is actually conducted in "free markets"?
Reply With Quote
  #12833  
Old 01-18-13, 16:05
VeloCity's Avatar
VeloCity VeloCity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 3,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
There is a difference between left wing and centre-left, my friend. Might I add that I think many countries in fact don't allow individuals enough opportunity to work themselves up to higher levels of economic success. This is due to too much welfare and too strict IR laws
Again, what countries would those be?

Upward social mobility is actually lower in the US than it is in Europe:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us...anted=all&_r=0

And one of the arguments for why that might be is that Americans are more risk-averse because the lack of a strong and broad social safety net makes the cost of failure so much greater than in other parts of the world - when times are tough, you keep your job (and your health insurance) rather than taking the chance of quitting and looking for a better one. To use a simplistic analogy off the top of my head, if you're a rock climber, are you likely to take more risks if you have a rope tied around your waist that will catch you if you fall (ie a strong social safety net to fall back on) or if you don't?

Last edited by VeloCity; 01-18-13 at 16:54.
Reply With Quote
  #12834  
Old 01-18-13, 18:59
Echoes Echoes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
Conservatism does not oppose free market. Modern day conservatism or neoconservatives support free markets but also support the foundations of society and the traditions that have served society well over hundreds of years.
Impossible to reconcile. Choose one or the other.

Free-market is based on the nomadic predator model, while conservatism is based on the family model and the sedentary producer.

Tory vs Whig.


Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
ANZUS is a war treaty, EU is a parliament for a particular region. Completely different so please come back to planet earth on that point.
Sorry, I'm a Euro and not fully aware of what is going on down under. I must've mixed Anzus with Apec. But since EU and NATO are just the two sides of the same coin, my comparison still holds.

Lol at the second sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
Euroscepticism and free markets are not contradictory. You can have free markets but not have a joined parliamentary body and joined currency, both of which have failed dismally. A European Union that has a few countries doling out money to multiple countries who are floundering is not what you would classify has laissez-faire/free market economics. It is largely supporters of the left that are pushing for the EU than those on the right.
Lol. The bailouts are anti-European. The EU Commission is just trying to save the Euro which does not work, by using methods that are against the Maastricht Treaty. And if it does not work, it's because of the laissez-faire policy that has been going on and sunk us since 1992.

Article 63 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU:
1. Within the framework of the provisions set out in this Chapter, all restrictions on the
movement of capital between Member States and between Member States and third countries shall be
prohibited.
2. Within the framework of the provisions set out in this Chapter, all restrictions on payments
between Member States and between Member States and third countries shall be prohibited.



Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
Euroscepticism is more a feature of right-wing politics, even if it traditionally isn't.
QED. Conservative Right-wingers like me. Sovereignty, Independentism (or Nationalism), Protectionism & Welfare State, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by auscyclefan94 View Post
not be spoon-fed by the state, something that a left winger supports.
Left-wing = Free-Trade. From Adam Smith to Bill Clinton.

Right-winger believe in a "small" state with MAXIMUM efficiency.

Bismarck, Disraeli, De Gaulle are all right-wingers who believe in state interventionism.
Reply With Quote
  #12835  
Old 01-18-13, 21:55
auscyclefan94's Avatar
auscyclefan94 auscyclefan94 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
Impossible to reconcile. Choose one or the other.

Free-market is based on the nomadic predator model, while conservatism is based on the family model and the sedentary producer.

Tory vs Whig.
There are soooo many parties around the world who would regard themselves, reasonably as well, as being free market yet conservative. A free market is a nomadic predator? If you are too stupid enough to not understand the basic concepts behind it, then yes it is. That doesn't imply that you don't understand what a free market is.

Quote:
Sorry, I'm a Euro and not fully aware of what is going on down under. I must've mixed Anzus with Apec. But since EU and NATO are just the two sides of the same coin, my comparison still holds.

Lol at the second sentence.
Errr, APEC is just an organisation that advocates free trade. Still different to the EU.


Quote:
Lol. The bailouts are anti-European. The EU Commission is just trying to save the Euro which does not work, by using methods that are against the Maastricht Treaty. And if it does not work, it's because of the laissez-faire policy that has been going on and sunk us since 1992.

Article 63 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU:
1. Within the framework of the provisions set out in this Chapter, all restrictions on the
movement of capital between Member States and between Member States and third countries shall be
prohibited.
2. Within the framework of the provisions set out in this Chapter, all restrictions on payments
between Member States and between Member States and third countries shall be prohibited.
Again, bailouts are not laissez faire policy. Keynesian style economics is simply not laissez faire either. Stating that free trade under Article 63 is the reason behind the sinking of Europe is nonsensical. You really need to clarify that statement.

Quote:
QED. Conservative Right-wingers like me. Sovereignty, Independentism (or Nationalism), Protectionism & Welfare State, ...

Left-wing = Free-Trade. From Adam Smith to Bill Clinton.

Right-winger believe in a "small" state with MAXIMUM efficiency.

Bismarck, Disraeli, De Gaulle are all right-wingers who believe in state interventionism.
So you are a right-winger, you support sovereignty and yet you support the EU? Right...

Left wing does not equal support of free trade. That is utter crap. Do socialists and communists support free trade? Of course not. Even more centre left parties are those who want protectionism and want limited free trade. You need to go back to the basic definitions of right wing and left wing. Right wing supports supports social hierarchy and that levels of social and economic inequality are natural. Left wing supports eliminating as much as possible the social inequality and social hierarchy in our society. Of course, these definitions are rather general but someone who supports the free market often will support a right wing philosophy being that you need the different classes for a capitalist economy to operate.

Some of your sentences about how 'right wingers support interventionist policy' and 'welfare state' is beyond baffling. Going on your own definition, how can right wingers support small government with maximum efficiency yet support Keynesian, protectionist and welfare state policies? Welfare is suppose to eliminate social inequality (i.e. it is more linked to the left).

What makes you a conservative? What are your views on abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and other social issues?

To be frank, I think debating what someone's economic philosophy on a right-left scale can be too simplistic.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggercuz View Post
second post ever after reading the forum for the last few years and one thing i must say, ACF94 is probably the most intelligent poster here, never biased to BMC or Cadel, and never gets worked up over anything.
Reply With Quote
  #12836  
Old 01-18-13, 22:03
auscyclefan94's Avatar
auscyclefan94 auscyclefan94 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aphronesis View Post
Never mind most, can you name a few?
Australia since the mid-eighties would be regarded as a free market economy although this has gone backwards under Gillard/Rudd. The US would to a certain extent be regarded as a free market although domestic politics somewhat alter that. Even China could be recognised as a free market economy with in recent years, the government opening up it's borders economically with Free Trade agreements with countries like Australia.

The reason why I am apprehensive to state that some countries are outright 'free markets' because there are still some policies in these countries that are protectionist, even though they are largely free market economies.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggercuz View Post
second post ever after reading the forum for the last few years and one thing i must say, ACF94 is probably the most intelligent poster here, never biased to BMC or Cadel, and never gets worked up over anything.
Reply With Quote
  #12837  
Old 01-19-13, 02:30
Alphabet's Avatar
Alphabet Alphabet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The yard
Posts: 796
Default

How the hell do leftists promote free trade? . Liberals/centre-leftists might, but for the most part, they don't really support it.

Psuedo-leftists like Stalin (who masqueraded as a communist but was in reality a fascist) also believed in maximum efficiency and heavy state control.
Reply With Quote
  #12838  
Old 01-19-13, 02:35
auscyclefan94's Avatar
auscyclefan94 auscyclefan94 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphabet View Post
How the hell do leftists promote free trade? . Liberals/centre-leftists might, but for the most part, they don't really support it.

Psuedo-leftists like Stalin (who masqueraded as a communist but was in reality a fascist) also believed in maximum efficiency and heavy state control.
I agree but I am going to knit pick and say that you better use a lower case l for liberals and not Liberals which are the centre-right party in Australia, as you would know.

EDIT: ACF being stupid. Ignore above line.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggercuz View Post
second post ever after reading the forum for the last few years and one thing i must say, ACF94 is probably the most intelligent poster here, never biased to BMC or Cadel, and never gets worked up over anything.

Last edited by auscyclefan94; 01-19-13 at 02:40.
Reply With Quote
  #12839  
Old 01-19-13, 02:37
Alphabet's Avatar
Alphabet Alphabet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The yard
Posts: 796
Default

It was the start of the sentence! It must be capitalised!
Reply With Quote
  #12840  
Old 01-19-13, 02:39
auscyclefan94's Avatar
auscyclefan94 auscyclefan94 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,678
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphabet View Post
It was the start of the sentence! It must be capitalised!
Of course! I take that back! Sorry!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggercuz View Post
second post ever after reading the forum for the last few years and one thing i must say, ACF94 is probably the most intelligent poster here, never biased to BMC or Cadel, and never gets worked up over anything.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.