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  #4821  
Old 01-23-13, 17:04
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Angliru Angliru is offline
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Originally Posted by Froome19 View Post
Sorry, but you say it will be very demanding to race against Wiggo?

And then you say you do not rate Froome. Froome was miles ahead of Wiggo in this year's Tour.

In terms of his designated leader role. He managed well enough in the Vuelta where he seemed fine in his role and seemed to be excelling until his fatigue kicked in and has now had valuable experience in that role. By the time that the Tour comes around he would have had even more experience.
Isn't that (the bolded sentence above) a bit of an exaggeration? Stronger in the mountains yes but not by miles from what we could see. Definitely not stronger against the clock.
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  #4822  
Old 01-23-13, 17:10
airstream airstream is offline
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Originally Posted by LaFlorecita View Post
That's a phobia? More a fallacy methinks.
By phobia I imply the ideological platform using which you evaluate riders who is a real threat.

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He got the major part of his time in the tts whereas Alberto also won it by attacking. Wiggo was just the better tter. Alberto was the better tter AND climber.
Diversity? True. But Wiggins gained in TTs so much that Contador can not even dream to gain on the climbs.

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Who the **** is saying that? You're living in your own fantasy world where everyone is against Sky/Froome/Wiggins. YOUR FANTASY WORLD IS NOT REALITY.
Don't spray your nerve cells. It is just a cycling discussion.

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WOW have you been studying airstream-ish or what? Your posts seem eerily familiar.
Living in my country you would know nothing. Ridiculing my English, you cry shame upon yourself actually.

Last edited by airstream; 01-23-13 at 17:14.
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  #4823  
Old 01-23-13, 17:15
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Angliru Angliru is offline
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Originally Posted by airstream View Post
You absolutize the experience factor as though it is manna. Everyone should win his first GT without winning experience or there are other ways out?

Though, dear Angliru, if you have to seriously rely on his experience, I sympathize with you. )
No, I stated that you ignored it's importance and then I laid out the vast difference between the 2 riders. YOU, as usual, over dramatized my post and spin it as if it is the only factor at play. Why are you always itching for a fight?
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  #4824  
Old 01-23-13, 17:19
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Originally Posted by Angliru View Post
No, I stated that you ignored it's importance and then I laid out the vast difference between the 2 riders. YOU, as usual, over dramatized my post and spin it as if it is the only factor at play. Why are you always itching for a fight?
No, I'm all for peaceful exchange of opinions but I don't like when some spoilt children rage.


As for discussion, I agree experience can give 1-2% to shake a total parity but it is not fundamental. Experience can't salvage one if he is prepared significantly worse.
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  #4825  
Old 01-23-13, 17:24
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rhubroma rhubroma is offline
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Originally Posted by Carols View Post
...They had advantages not possible today in the current climate.
I'm not so sure those advantages aren't still in place. Especially in light of the most current situation, it has become increasingly difficult to safely handle risk management for sure, though not for this should we conclude that we have arrived at epochal change. Nor has the inertia of new release state of the art products seem to have diminished over recent years.

Be that as it may, in any case even if those advantages have been attenuated then one would assume that the situation has reverted back to an older balance of powers, for which there are examples like Hinault and Roche to provide optimism that the Giro-Tour double is possible in today's cycling.

The most likely candidate to achieve this, unless having courses with multiple 50k+ time trials and effectively castrated mountain stages like we got In last year’s Tour, is Alberto as we both agree.

Last edited by rhubroma; 01-23-13 at 17:26.
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  #4826  
Old 01-23-13, 17:28
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Originally Posted by rhubroma
If any racer of this generation has the capacity to do the Giro-Tour double, then it's got to be AC (doping notwithstanding).
Sadly, one handles this aspect for 2 different riders very differently.

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Nobody expected to witness the extra-terrestrial Wiggins (I don't care what anybody says - from Paris Nice through the Tour he was unbeatable) we had last year
Nobody of those who don't want to see him extra-terrestrial. Logically, I think the likelihood that Contador will reproduce his the 2009 form and the likelihood that Wiggins will reproduce his the 2012 Tour one are equal.

And yet I think your vision of 'Wiggins' place' and real place are really different.
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  #4827  
Old 01-23-13, 17:40
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Originally Posted by airstream View Post
Sadly, one handles this aspect for 2 different riders very differently.


Nobody of those who don't want to see him extra-terrestrial. Logically, I think the likelihood that Contador will reproduce his the 2009 form and the likelihood that Wiggins will reproduce his the 2012 Tour one are equal.

And yet I think your vision of 'Wiggins' place' and real place are really different.
Why, on the balance of it AC has more class than Wiggins. No bias here, just an honest assessment of the two riders capacities and ability to make a race explode. Whereas Wiggins dominance from start of the season through the TdF last year can only be described in such terms. I don't, consequently, believe that I'm alone in this sentiment. The Briton was never so "above" in previous seasons, at times he even struggled through the Giro and was nowhere near a top contender.

Lastly I must respond to your quote that "Parcours is a decoration of the race, its framework. A rider is beaten by other riders, not by parcours. Considering what we saw, there is minimum evidence to suppose those guys would have beaten Wiggins on a harder course (theoretically probable TdF course surely because they are never so difficult how the Giro course)."

This is simply not true. A parcours is not merely the race's ornament, but can play a decisive role in the outcome of the event. This is true of the classics as it is of the grand tours. No doubt Wiggins was helped and benefited from the long TTs and rather insignificant mountain stages in last year’s Tour, this apart from the fact that a top champion was not present. In a more balanced race, one having a few severe MTFs, gaining enough advantage in the long TT to offset the losses in the mountains becomes increasingly difficult. Even Bradly himself has acknowledged this point, in realizing that it will no doubt be even more difficult for him to win the Giro, precisely because of the parcours and the more severe ascents that the Italian event presents. Hence the old adage that it's not the course that makes the race, but the riders can only really be applied to the overall depth of quality in the field, however, at this point the actual terrain will have a decisive impact on the strenghts and weaknesses of the top contenders: in some cases will indeed cause a natural selection.

Last edited by rhubroma; 01-23-13 at 18:24.
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  #4828  
Old 01-23-13, 18:03
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Why, on the balance of it AC has more class than Wiggins. No bias here, just an honest assessment of the two riders capacities and ability to make a race explode.
I agree. But exploding the race is a new variant, but not guarantee of success. Exploding implies a huge work, bigger efforts compared to cycling Wiggins professes. No one is able to explode everything solely. Anyone needs allies for different teams. I would give probably 90% to Contador and 10% to Wiggins but IMO if Wiggins will be the second climber in the race, which is possible, Contador will lose. Because since only Pantani in the 1998 Tour could gain on the climbs alone a lot. It's diabolically hard. Wiggins is not junior and he won't panic. He will defend overly rationally.

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Lastly I must respond to your quote that "Parcours is a decoration of the race, its framework. A rider is beaten by other riders, not by parcours. Considering what we saw, there is minimum evidence to suppose those guys would have beaten Wiggins on a harder course (theoretically probable TdF course surely because they are never so difficult how the Giro course)."
Sorry, perhaps, this word has a bit different meanings in our languages. I meant decoration like an element of a theater scene, a thing which doesn't influence much on what happens. Again, a race with a tougher course ≠ a tougher race. A tougher race is a race when one hit maximally tight competition and has to show 100% of what he can do in the sport. For the years I follow I haven't seen riders who succeed in the Tour, but couldn't do Giro. If one passes over 6-7% average grade climbs, he will be able to do that at 8-9% too.

Tour was always a thing of special sort and for this reason it is the most difficult race to win. Breathe gets harder in the Tour literally and figuratively. It doesn't have monstrous dolomite stages and Mortirolo and the ascents are ridden in a hurricane tempo. Wiggins won the Tour beautifully and deservedly. Why Contador's presence neutralizes his Giro chances is a riddle for me.

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Even Bradly himself has acknowledged this point, in realizing that it will no doubt be even more difficult for him to win the Giro, precisely because of the parcours and the more severe ascents that the Italian event prevents.
I don't see specialists of high gradient among their probable rivals, but Contador.

Last edited by airstream; 01-23-13 at 18:20.
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  #4829  
Old 01-23-13, 18:59
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I agree. But exploding the race is a new variant, but not guarantee of success. Exploding implies a huge work, bigger efforts compared to cycling Wiggins professes. No one is able to explode everything solely. Anyone needs allies for different teams. I would give probably 90% to Contador and 10% to Wiggins but IMO if Wiggins will be the second climber in the race, which is possible, Contador will lose. Because since only Pantani in the 1998 Tour could gain on the climbs alone a lot. It's diabolically hard. Wiggins is not junior and he won't panic. He will defend overly rationally.
Wiggins was nothing short of impressive last year, however, it remains to be seen how he handles being put under real pressure in the mountains, and difficult ascents at that. It might be that he can diesel his way to limiting losses and damage control, enough to then take full advantage of expressing his potential in the TTs to win. Yet Contador has a class that permits him the luxury of repeated blistering attacks, which can unravel a rival like Wiggins if not absolutely on top of his game. The smart thing for the later to do would be to consider each climb as a time trial and not worry about the accelerations of his rivals, let them either take some time out of him or fizzle out. Naturally this was his strategy last year, and it worked to a charm. Though it was never against a super Contador, or Shleck for that matter, which leaves some margin of doubt as to whether it would still be a recipe for success in such cases. In other words, is the difference in climbing ability between themselves such that, on a significantly harder climbing course, the Briton’s ability at fortuitous damage control is marginally greater to overcome his rivals’ superiority in accelerated uphill stamina? This to me seems key, because while Alberto has a phenomenal capacity to blast ahead on climbs, he seems less capable of sustaining those efforts (unlike Pantani, by the way, who if somewhat less explosive than the Spaniard, was all the more continuous).

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Sorry, perhaps, this word has a bit different meanings in our languages. I meant decoration like an element of a theater scene, a thing which doesn't influence much on what happens. Again, a race with a tougher course ≠ a tougher race. A tougher race is a race when one hit maximally tight competition and has to show 100% of what he can do in the sport. For the years I follow I haven't seen riders who succeed in the Tour, but couldn't do Giro. If one passes over 6-7% average grade climbs, he will be able to do that at 8-9% too.
Ok, a Wiggins of the same form in last year’s Tour at the 2011 Giro against a Contador in the same form that year, given the differences in parcours, has no shot at winning. This is what I meant by the type of course, all things else being equal, plays a hand in the outcome of the event, because it can play favorably to one rider's strengths, while penalizing another's weaknesses. (And vice versa of course).

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Tour was always a thing of special sort and for this reason it is the most difficult race to win. Breathe gets harder in the Tour literally and figuratively. It doesn't have monstrous dolomite stages and Mortirolo and the ascents are ridden in a hurricane tempo. Wiggins won the Tour beautifully and deservedly. Why Contador's presence neutralizes his Giro chances is a riddle for me.
I would agree that Wiggins won the last Tour deservedly; beautifully, however, given Froome out-classing him in the mountains (which weren't very hard as far as mountains at the Tour go) is a matter which is entirely up for debate. That's because I didn't find the parcours very appealing, or particularly worthy of the Tour. At any rate the Tour has always been the most difficult race to win because all the best riders in each discipline are there to leave a mark, even if it means just making the top twenty, which naturally intensifies the competition throughout, while stretching the resources of the overall contenders to their maximum capacity. Yet significant modifications to the overall terrain, notwithstanding all the rest, can determine the outcome, simply because not every contender is equipped with the same resources to burn.

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I don't see specialists of high gradient among their probable rivals, but Contador.
And that's why he's the guy to beat.

Last edited by rhubroma; 01-23-13 at 19:50.
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  #4830  
Old 01-23-13, 19:33
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Siriuscat Siriuscat is offline
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More Airstream rubbish!!

You really must do some more research before you waffle on sometimes, there's a real ignorance of cycling in your posts sometimes.

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Parcours is a decoration of the race, its framework. A rider is beaten by other riders, not by parcours.
Are you off you're head man?? The parcours, ruta or Corsa are the whole basis of the race, they shape both the entry and the entire outcome of the race. An example: Put Wiggo against Berto on the 2011 Giro couse, mountain heavy, not much in the way of TT Kms, Wiggo loses 10 minutes +. last year's tour was designed for TT riders, lots of medium mountain type stages no PROPER tour type mountain stages, half a dozen alpine passes then an MTF.

As a Brit it was brilliant to have a British winner but lets not be fooled, had Berto or even Andy been there the few mountains would have been different stages to handle altogether.
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