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  #961  
Old 01-24-13, 22:13
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Nice that what you think happens is at odds with the well performed research that compares pedalling with and without cleats (no difference), pedalling effectiveness (less effective = more power), being instructed to change the application of power around the pedal stroke (no improvement in power), changing crank length (no improvement in power or efficiency), using a crank that forces you to change the application of power around the stroke (no improvement in power and only 1 study saying an improvement in efficiency and every subsequent study saying there isn't), using elliptical rings (no improvement in power expect for a very short term test).

Maybe what you think is just thrown out there to sell Gimmickcranks.
Hey Fergie, by what mechanism do you explain the finding that "less effective means more power"? I know this is what they found but how is this explained? From this study that you think is so wonderful it would appear that we should all be working on developing a less effective pedal stroke and the worse it is the better for the racing.
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  #962  
Old 01-25-13, 10:45
coapman coapman is offline
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If you want to restrict yourself to what you believe is natural why don't we talk about what is really natural to humans, running. In running all of the forces that provide power are backwards (the downward forces only support the body). To say we should be restricting our power production to the pushing phase because it is "natural" when the reason this is "natural" is we all learned the coordination on platform pedals, where if we pulled back, lifted on the backstroke, or pushed forward over the top with any force meant our foot would come off of the pedal, is just silly to me. Yet that is the philosophy of many more than just you (to include the entirety of the "just push harder" crowd).


Instead of pulling back and lifting, my leg is drawn back and up (mentally ahead of the rising pedal). This is because the leg has to be up and ready at 11 o'c to simultaneously start the power stroke at 11 o'c as the other leg's power stroke ends at 5. Not unweighting during the upstroke is probably caused by the two dead spot sectors at 12 and 6, the upstroke becomes an extension of the that idling.
  #963  
Old 01-25-13, 17:10
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Instead of pulling back and lifting, my leg is drawn back and up (mentally ahead of the rising pedal). This is because the leg has to be up and ready at 11 o'c to simultaneously start the power stroke at 11 o'c as the other leg's power stroke ends at 5. Not unweighting during the upstroke is probably caused by the two dead spot sectors at 12 and 6, the upstroke becomes an extension of the that idling.
You must be quite the mental giant. I find it impossible to concentrate on both the right and left legs at the same time when they are doing two different things. And, the last sentence is incomprehensible to me.
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  #964  
Old 01-25-13, 17:19
sciguy sciguy is offline
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[QUOTE[B]=FrankDay;1122029]You must be quite the mental giant. I find it impossible to concentrate on both the right and left legs at the same time when they are doing two different things.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean like athletes need to do when they use PowerCranks?

Last edited by sciguy; 01-25-13 at 20:57.
  #965  
Old 01-25-13, 17:19
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Hey Fergie, by what mechanism do you explain the finding that "less effective means more power"? I know this is what they found but how is this explained? From this study that you think is so wonderful it would appear that we should all be working on developing a less effective pedal stroke and the worse it is the better for the racing.
Fergie (or anyone else in that camp), I am waiting for an explanation as to how you explain that pedaling effectiveness and pedaling efficiency are inversely related. This result would seemingly predict that maximum efficiency would occur when pedaling effectiveness is zero. Or, if not that, what is the optimum amount of pedaling ineffectiveness to maximize power/efficiency?

The problem I see here is you guys don't really read this stuff and consider the implications but, rather, as soon as you see a result that seemingly supports your bias jump on it without any further thought.

Anyhow,I ask again, by what mechanism can you explain this result and what predictions can you make from it? I can do it. Let's see what you come up with. You can enlist the aid of Dr. Martin or Dr. Coggan (or anyone else) if you need to. Good luck.
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  #966  
Old 01-25-13, 17:28
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The problem I see here is you guys don't really read this stuff and consider the implications but, rather, as soon as you see a result that seemingly supports your bias jump on it without any further thought.
Quite rich coming from the master of cherry picking studies and often resorting anecdotal or fabricated stories to peddle Gimmickcranks.
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  #967  
Old 01-25-13, 17:42
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Hey Fergie, by what mechanism do you explain the finding that "less effective means more power"? I know this is what they found but how is this explained? From this study that you think is so wonderful it would appear that we should all be working on developing a less effective pedal stroke and the worse it is the better for the racing.
Probably pretty well explained by either event (sprinters less effective due to the gear selection etc) or the experience of the rider (the cat 1 time trial riders had more specific training experience). I don't train pedal stroke. I coach cyclists to meet the demands of their specific event.

Apart from your's and Noel's absurd claims I don't see anything in the literature that would make the magnitude of improvement worth focusing on such a minor detail.

NZ Track Cycling Champs start next Thursday so I have been down the track fine tuning things with some relatively new riders working on staying aero, holding their lines at 60-70kph, pacing, warm up process, recovery between events, gear selection as these things can make a big difference among other things.
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  #968  
Old 01-25-13, 17:48
coapman coapman is offline
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You must be quite the mental giant. I find it impossible to concentrate on both the right and left legs at the same time when they are doing two different things.


That's what people have been trying to tell you, and is why circular pedalling is less effective than mashing. In my case it happens naturally because no work (torque) is being done between 5 and 11, so total concentration can be given to the power stroke between 11 and 5 o'c. Most effective torque application needs total concentration. With circular pedalling you are continually using split concentration, the weakest muscles generating minimal torque require the same concentration as the most powerful muscles that are supposed to be applying maximal torque.
  #969  
Old 01-25-13, 17:53
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Quite rich coming from the master of cherry picking studies and often resorting anecdotal or fabricated stories to peddle Gimmickcranks.
Fergie, Does it matter if I am cherry picking? I am simply asking for you to give everyone a mechanism that explains the inverse relationship between pedaling effectiveness and pedaling efficiency found by Mornieux et. al. and posted by Martin as seemingly significant. Did Mornieux give a mechanism to explain this seeming dichotomy? Martin? Anyone else?

One of the purposes of science is to understand the world. It isn't enough to gather data but rather use that data to help one understand the underlying mechanism that explains it. So, Mornieux presented some data. How do you explain it? Does your explanation allow you to make any predictions that can be tested? If your explanation allows you to make predictions and those predictions are correct then you are, perhaps, on your way to a greater understanding of what is going on.

So, let's hear how you explain that data.
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  #970  
Old 01-25-13, 18:01
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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In my case it happens naturally because no work (torque) is being done between 5 and 11, so total concentration can be given to the power stroke between 11 and 5 o'c.
I can pretty much guarantee you that you are wrong here, especially since you have done zero work trying to develop this part of the stroke. If you learned to ride a bicycle on platform pedals it is not "natural" to apply zero torque on the upstroke. You, like almost everyone else, are doing negative work between 5 and 11 (or 6 and 12), the only question is how much. If you think otherwise I look forward to seeing the proof of what you do.
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