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Old 01-25-13, 17:07
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Probably pretty well explained by either event (sprinters less effective due to the gear selection etc) or the experience of the rider (the cat 1 time trial riders had more specific training experience). I don't train pedal stroke. I coach cyclists to meet the demands of their specific event.
That is not a mechanism.
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Apart from your's and Noel's absurd claims I don't see anything in the literature that would make the magnitude of improvement worth focusing on such a minor detail.
You are dodging the question. If you cannot explain it you don't understand it. Yet you keep throwing it out as being significant. Why, if you don't understand it?
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NZ Track Cycling Champs start next Thursday so I have been down the track fine tuning things with some relatively new riders working on staying aero, holding their lines at 60-70kph, pacing, warm up process, recovery between events, gear selection as these things can make a big difference among other things.
Cool. When you get a chance address this issue. Or, just stay away and let those who might be able to comment on this dichotomy (you do see it as a dichotomy don't you?) join the discussion.
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  #972  
Old 01-25-13, 17:19
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What I do understand is that the only people trying to claim this stuff is important is some crank in Ireland and someone selling a product to fix a problem that doesn't really exist.
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  #973  
Old 01-25-13, 17:38
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What I do understand is that the only people trying to claim this stuff is important is some crank in Ireland and someone selling a product to fix a problem that doesn't really exist.
What you don't understand is this data was in a published study. It certainly is not what someone would have predicted that pedaling effectiveness and pedaling efficiency would be inversely related. Therefore, if you think this finding significant to counter my thoughts you had better be prepared to explain it or, at least, try to explain it or enlist someone else to explain it. Until then your (and their) silence says you (and they) really don't understand this stuff and your arguments are simply a lot of huffing and puffing.

BTW, I can present a mechanism to explain this finding.
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  #974  
Old 01-25-13, 18:03
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I have given mechanism's which are gear selection and training that will adequately explain differences in effectiveness and efficiency.

What is is yet to be explained is the magnitude of importance of these matters. I say small and the research would support this. You say up to a 40% improvement in power and have nothing to support this.
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  #975  
Old 01-25-13, 19:11
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I have given mechanism's which are gear selection and training that will adequately explain differences in effectiveness and efficiency.
That is not a mechanism to explain the findings of the study where pedaling effectiveness and efficiency were inversely related when simply asking people to pedal in a different fashion. So, FAIL. You need to explain why the muscles in this study were found to be using more oxygen for any given power when the pedaling effectiveness (more work performed for any given force) improved?
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What is is yet to be explained is the magnitude of importance of these matters. I say small and the research would support this. You say up to a 40% improvement in power and have nothing to support this.
The magnitude is unimportant. There was a distinct relationship found and it needs to be explained why it occurs or, if one cannot, one cannot say they understand pedaling fully. Any reasonably educated person would expect that pedaling effectiveness and efficiency would be directly related. The inverse was found. It needs to be explained. I can do so. I will patiently wait for your explanation so we might be able to discuss any differences and, perhaps, resolve them. Or, perhaps, your explanation might agree with mine, the only reasonable one I can think of.
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  #976  
Old 01-25-13, 19:32
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According to Broker's data track sprinters produced the most power using the least effective portion of the pedal stroke compared to XC riders who had the highest effective pedal stroke. Main distinction between the two groups is cadence.

Then compare with Coyle's data between two groups of time trial riders and the riders with the longer training histories produce more power and through a less effective pedal stroke. That was also Coyle's explanation for Lance's improvement over time, based on a large volume of riding although we now know a bit of pharmacological assistance.

Bit of a no brainer that the more one trains for something the more efficient they become at it. What is still to be explained is why someone would suggest people should train with a different pedal stroke to how they will perform in competition.
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  #977  
Old 01-25-13, 19:36
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The magnitude is unimportant. There was a distinct relationship found and it needs to be explained why it occurs or, if one cannot, one cannot say they understand pedaling fully.
Well kinda important. If it can make a meaningful impact on performance then it should be pursued. If not it should be left to the creator to make wild arsed claims on Internet forums.
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  #978  
Old 01-25-13, 21:14
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According to Broker's data track sprinters produced the most power using the least effective portion of the pedal stroke compared to XC riders who had the highest effective pedal stroke. Main distinction between the two groups is cadence.

Then compare with Coyle's data between two groups of time trial riders and the riders with the longer training histories produce more power and through a less effective pedal stroke. That was also Coyle's explanation for Lance's improvement over time, based on a large volume of riding although we now know a bit of pharmacological assistance.

Bit of a no brainer that the more one trains for something the more efficient they become at it. What is still to be explained is why someone would suggest people should train with a different pedal stroke to how they will perform in competition.


How can Broker and Coyle claim to be doing different pedalling technique effectiveness and efficiency research when because they know of only one way to pedal, all they are doing is comparing variations of the same basic technique in which maximal torque is applied around the 3 o'c mark. From what you state above, what they are doing is cadence efficiency and effectiveness research. The more one trains for something, the more efficient the body becomes at doing this task but the effectiveness and efficiency of the technique used does not change. Improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the technique and you will get far greater rewards from the same training.
  #979  
Old 01-25-13, 21:28
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A nice theory Noel ruined by a sad lack of evidence. And to think Dr Jim Martin has offered to set you up with people in the UK who can test the theory for you. Instead you duck for cover claiming you can't travel or waiting for the vaporware that is Brim Brother's power meters.
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  #980  
Old 01-25-13, 21:42
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A nice theory Noel ruined by a sad lack of evidence. And to think Dr Jim Martin has offered to set you up with people in the UK who can test the theory for you. Instead you duck for cover claiming you can't travel or waiting for the vaporware that is Brim Brother's power meters.


You should ask J. Bobet if he believed pedalling technique could make a difference in time trial performance. As a man who studied the technique of Anquetil throughout all his racing years both as a rider and later from a car as a journalist, it would be interesting what he would think of this TT semi circular technique.
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