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  #441  
Old 01-26-13, 20:48
Joachim Joachim is offline
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Considering DB did dismiss Leinders due to the criticism (note not because of the clinic, but it were the same complaints) and considering that Kimmage and a cycling mag editor (forgot his name) started questioning it all I'd say there are plenty of suspicions outside this special place on the internet.

In fact Wiggins "w@nk3rs" outburst himself shows that there are many who harbor suspicions!

So you are pretty insular here. Even those involved disagree flat out with you here.
Wiggins outburst was directed at a journalist asking him about anonymous accusations on Twitter.

Kimmage picked up on the Leinders thing, quite rightly, in my view. He seems to have gone a bit quiet about it now. It's a bit of a one-trick pony if there is nothing else to go on. Even Kimmage was incredibly guarded about how he voiced his interest in Leinders.
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  #442  
Old 01-26-13, 20:51
Joachim Joachim is offline
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Why do you spend almost every day trolling the sky threads then?
Funnily enough, I'm one of a small handful of people who arent trolls, from both sides of the fence.

You certainly aren't on that list.
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  #443  
Old 01-26-13, 20:52
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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I think the worst that can happen (barring a positive of him/teammate) is being destroyed by the competition, making his win a worthless fluke. The Brittish press might not be gentle
If this is the case, I'm sure he can use the motivation issue. After all, he can argue that he's been to the top of the mountain, he's achieved Olympic glory on track and road, won the Tour de France, all that's missing is the Worlds. Motivating yourself to repeat past glories is not the same as motivating yourself to achieve something you've never done before. The press would buy that.
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I have doubts too. but that is no evidence.
I take it you'll be joining me in defending Juanjo Cobo's Vuelta win as a triumph for clean cycling then?
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Not evidence. The case can be made that he switched focus and was already worldclass.
His ITT standard improved drastically over the last 2-3 years. He went from being a prologue specialist who would come top 10ish in mid-length TTs and occasionally win when the guys like Cancellara weren't there, to a guy who puts minutes into everybody and wins every full length TT he enters (and is 2nd in every prologue).
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You have some info on Sastre that we don't?
Just extrapolating from Wiggins' statements?
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  #444  
Old 01-26-13, 21:02
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Benotti69 Benotti69 is offline
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<snip>

Yeah I doubt! But there is no smoking gun.
Leinders could be the gun.

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And that proofs nothing.... One has to be the first. Unlikely... I'm with you! I find it all rather much and there needs an awful lot of explaining (a very, very bad sign in my opinion as I do not believe in fairytales). But that said, the direct evidence is remarkably absent. Usually there are inside mutterings or rumours, but just like Sastre it's crickets.
To compare Sastre and Wiggins. Riis sent his riders to Fuentes, that we know from Shcelck and Hamilton. Sky hired Leinders. Sastre's name has not appeared in the Fuentes list. Leinders is a doping doctor, h Rabo trial is showing that. To me that is smoke and where there is smoke in cycling......

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There has to be some direct evidence before the Unions/WADA start handing out bans. it's a simple requirement of decent justice.
The clinic is a forum.

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I also 100% support questioning and grilling those involved for answers... and the longer they stall the more troublesome it becomes.
Leinders might spill the beans on Sky if he can get some lenience for doing so.
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  #445  
Old 01-26-13, 21:07
Franklin Franklin is offline
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I take it you'll be joining me in defending Juanjo Cobo's Vuelta win as a triumph for clean cycling then?
Good call

Cobo is definitely more troublesome due to his team background. In this we have no direct evidence, but considering almost every rider who popped above the median from Saunier Duval has been implicated my hopes are remote.

It's definitely something Wiggins does not carry. In fact his reaction when confronted with doped riders was at least somewhat hopeful (and are just that, words which he belied since then).

But yeah, with what I know of Cobo... he's innocent. Definitely questionable, but that goes for every GT winner.

Quote:
His ITT standard improved drastically over the last 2-3 years. He went from being a prologue specialist who would come top 10ish in mid-length TTs and occasionally win when the guys like Cancellara weren't there, to a guy who puts minutes into everybody and wins every full length TT he enters (and is 2nd in every prologue).
Yeps, definitely eyepopping. Definitely worth discussing and not something to be wiped of the table. But smoking gun? Nope.

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Just extrapolating from Wiggins' statements?
Hellll no

Sastre simply has Riis in his bagage.. and for me personally that makes me incredulous. Keep in mind is that my sliver of doubt that Wiggins is dirty is a personal thing. If we look at the evidence Sastre gets a big pass.

My position that there is as yet no smoking gun against Sky/Wiggins does not mean I want to end the discussion. At the contrary I find that the Clinic asks the right questions and that anyone railing against it is simply not interested in cleaning up the sport.

But in the end we need to have a framework of fair justice. Some(most?) will slip through, but that's part of how it works. We can't start punishing people without good evidence.

Last edited by Franklin; 01-26-13 at 21:15. Reason: spelling
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  #446  
Old 01-26-13, 21:08
Franklin Franklin is offline
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The clinic is a forum.
100% agreed !

And you probably know my stance on Leinders
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  #447  
Old 01-26-13, 21:21
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Benotti69 Benotti69 is offline
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100% agreed !

And you probably know my stance on Leinders
Yep.

10 chara............
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  #448  
Old 01-26-13, 21:31
SundayRider SundayRider is offline
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I have doubts too. but that is no evidence.



(thankfully!) not evidence.



A definite black eye for the team and DB, but no evidence that he injected BW.



Not evidence. The case can be made that he switched focus and was already worldclass.



There were marked differences though. But I guess his values of 2009 are the closest we get to "evidence".



Yeah you could. And I certainly agree it ain't over and that these questions need to be asked.

But if we look at TdF winners Wiggins seems to have remarkably little against him. I can think of several levels more trouble for Evans.

Wiggins is the first one I really don't know. And that's the first time in a long long time. And that itself gives me enough reason to pause and ask the neccesary questions
Regarding Armstrong 2009 Tour, the reasoned decision indicates that there is a 1 in 1 million chance that he did NOT dope.
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  #449  
Old 01-26-13, 21:56
jamiephillips jamiephillips is offline
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I'm a bit slow but just read Vaughters tweet where he "elaborates" about the 2009 Tour where Lance was advising Wiggo to leave Garmin. This could be the innocent explanation for Wiggins man love. The fact that for 3 weeks Lance was kissing Wig's ****, telling him how he could win the tour if only he left Garmin etc.
Rather than sharing dark secrets Lance was just bigging him up?

*Apologies if discusssed already*
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  #450  
Old 01-26-13, 22:02
Franklin Franklin is offline
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Originally Posted by jamiephillips View Post
I'm a bit slow but just read Vaughters tweet where he "elaborates" about the 2009 Tour where Lance was advising Wiggo to leave Garmin. This could be the innocent explanation for Wiggins man love. The fact that for 3 weeks Lance was kissing Wig's ****, telling him how he could win the tour if only he left Garmin etc.
Rather than sharing dark secrets Lance was just bigging him up?

*Apologies if discusssed already*
Problem there is that it has sinistre implications.

1. Wiggins knew Lance was dirty.
2. Lance obviously implied that at a "more pragmatic" team Wiggo could win a GT.
3. Wiggo liked the wooing of Lance enough to reward that with his full support.

If your theory goes it's incredibly tough not to see it as a big suspicion cloud (especially since he did indeed leave Garmin.. and that there were more pragmatic hiring rules a bit later).

If anything what you suggest is in full agreement with the critics.

Lucky for Wiggins this one is speculation.
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