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  #1061  
Old 02-02-13, 06:38
FrankDay FrankDay is online now
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Why is DC size closely related to energy consumption and what's the point in making that statement about generating power evenly when everyone knows it cannot be done.
Actually, quite a bit of power is generated on the backstroke but it is hidden and difficult to measure. Huh? you say. The fact is that a lot of potential energy is put into the leg when lifting the foot on the upstroke. Much of that energy is returned as power on the down stroke when that potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. Power is generated much more evenly around the pedal stroke than most people think.

Further, it was simply the finding of the study that those who generated more power/torque at TDC/BDC were more efficient on average. It is up to others to prove/explain why although anyone can hypothesize, as they did, even though they might have better said "more evenly" than "evenly".
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  #1062  
Old 02-02-13, 19:45
coapman coapman is offline
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Actually, quite a bit of power is generated on the backstroke but it is hidden and difficult to measure. Huh? you say. The fact is that a lot of potential energy is put into the leg when lifting the foot on the upstroke. Much of that energy is returned as power on the down stroke when that potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. Power is generated much more evenly around the pedal stroke than most people think.

Further, it was simply the finding of the study that those who generated more power/torque at TDC/BDC were more efficient on average. It is up to others to prove/explain why although anyone can hypothesize, as they did, even though they might have better said "more evenly" than "evenly".

That was DC research, nothing to do with the upstroke. How could it be said that power is generated more evenly around the pedal stroke when minimal if any torque is applied between 6 and 12 o'c. In that research DC force was 27.3% and 25.7%, can you explain what that is referring to and how many degrees of the pedalling circle are included in TDC.
  #1063  
Old 02-06-13, 15:40
FrankDay FrankDay is online now
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How could it be said that power is generated more evenly around the pedal stroke when minimal if any torque is applied between 6 and 12 o'c. In that research DC force was 27.3% and 25.7%, can you explain what that is referring to and how many degrees of the pedalling circle are included in TDC.
There can not be more than 100% power generated around the circle. If we assume that the bulk of the power is generated on the downstroke then anytime we increase the DC percentage then the downstroke/upstroke percentage must decrease the same amount which is pretty much the definition of "more even" when the DC component and the "power" components come closer together.

I suggest you read the full paper if you want to know how they defined DC size. My guess is they took the average of the top and bottom quadrants and added them together for DC power.
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  #1064  
Old 02-06-13, 23:40
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There can not be more than 100% power generated around the circle. If we assume that the bulk of the power is generated on the downstroke then anytime we increase the DC percentage then the downstroke/upstroke percentage must decrease the same amount which is pretty much the definition of "more even" when the DC component and the "power" components come closer together.
.
If I use the mashing style I will apply 100 % of my leg's total torque in my downstroke. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I use the circular style and apply some torque at TDC and BDC, I will apply about 95 % of mashing's total torque in my pedal stroke. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------If I change to the semi circular style and apply maximal torque at TDC while ignoring BDC, I can apply 150 % of mashing's total torque in my pedal stroke without changing peak torque around 3 o'c.
  #1065  
Old 02-06-13, 23:45
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As has been kindly offered by Dr Jim Martin on Slowtwitch, please avail yourself of the research facilities in the UK to test this theory.
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  #1066  
Old 02-07-13, 00:05
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If I use the mashing style I will apply 100 % of my leg's total torque in my downstroke. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I use the circular style and apply some torque at TDC and BDC, I will apply about 95 % of mashing's total torque in my pedal stroke. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------If I change to the semi circular style and apply maximal torque at TDC while ignoring BDC, I can apply 150 % of mashing's total torque in my pedal stroke without changing peak torque around 3 o'c.
No, If we divide the stroke in half most mashers apply more than 100% of their total torque on the downstroke because they have to make up for the negative torques they apply on the backstroke. What is the advantage of applying 150% of the total torque on the downstroke when that means that 50% of that effort is totally wasted?

Further, everyone applies some force total at TDC and BDC because if they didn't the pedals would stop. The difference between mashers and spinners is one of degree, not absolutes.
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  #1067  
Old 02-07-13, 11:49
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No, If we divide the stroke in half most mashers apply more than 100% of their total torque on the downstroke because they have to make up for the negative torques they apply on the backstroke. What is the advantage of applying 150% of the total torque on the downstroke when that means that 50% of that effort is totally wasted?

Further, everyone applies some force total at TDC and BDC because if they didn't the pedals would stop. The difference between mashers and spinners is one of degree, not absolutes.
Another way of explaining my last post would be as follows. For torque generating purposes per pedal stroke, circular pedalling is about 5% less effective than mashing and semi circular is about 50% more effective than mashing. As for smoothing the power application, the chain ring is last in the line of transfer of chain drive power from muscles to the chain and the chain ring is where the smoothing of power application should be concentrated with each leg responsible for 180 degrees of its circle.
  #1068  
Old 02-07-13, 18:34
FrankDay FrankDay is online now
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Another way of explaining my last post would be as follows. For torque generating purposes per pedal stroke, circular pedalling is about 5% less effective than mashing and semi circular is about 50% more effective than mashing. As for smoothing the power application, the chain ring is last in the line of transfer of chain drive power from muscles to the chain and the chain ring is where the smoothing of power application should be concentrated with each leg responsible for 180 degrees of its circle.
a better way of explaining what you are saying would be to give us the actual data from which you derive those numbers. To most of us it is simply a bunch of guessing and wishful thinking.
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  #1069  
Old 02-08-13, 17:58
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a better way of explaining what you are saying would be to give us the actual data from which you derive those numbers. To most of us it is simply a bunch of guessing and wishful thinking.


Commonsense is all that's required. Without any extra training your muscles are already strong enough to apply continuous maximal torque through 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, but you don't know how to use them. They can give that extra 50% extra torque, and about 20% of that extra torque could be considered free torque because it is the wasted non tangential pedal force in the upper half of a natural pedaller's downstroke that has been converted into crank torque. PC's have been around for many years and an explanation has never been given as to where any of that 40% power increase occurs. That latest PC research is another waste of time because all that is being tested is the unweighting technique.
  #1070  
Old 02-08-13, 20:05
JayKosta JayKosta is offline
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Commonsense is all that's required. Without any extra training your muscles are already strong enough to apply continuous maximal torque through 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c, but you don't know how to use them.
===================================

coapman,

I trust that you believe what you write, but I just don't understand it!

You keep mentioning 'continuous maximal torque' but what is that for you?
Is it

'the max torque that YOU produce in the best 30 degree section of pedaling'?

or is it something like

'the max torque that YOU produce for EACH 30 degree section of pedaling'? So that YOUR 'max torque' number differs depending on what section is considered.

It would help me to understand what torque you think you are producing if you gave a 'torque estimate' for each 30 degree section of a full rotation of either your left or right foot (I assume they are similar).

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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