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View Poll Results: Which double is harder to do?
Giro - Tour 72 87.80%
Tour - Vuelta 3 3.66%
equally hard 6 7.32%
equally impossible 1 1.22%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 02-03-13, 14:22
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Actually, when you have attacks this doesn't necessarily improve the time because it means people are looking at each other when the attack is reeled in, so the pace drops as they gather their forces for the next attack. Just look at Alpe d'Huez in 2008, where one of the main ways the Schleck brothers ensured Sastre got the time he needed was by attacking. Sastre was able to ride the climb at his own pace, maintain a constant tempo and not worry about anybody around him, whereas all the others had to worry about others. If Fränk Schleck attacked they needed to be strong enough to stay with him because he was the maillot jaune, if Andy Schleck attacked they needed to be strong enough to stay with him to stop him riding across to Sastre. So you've got all these people trying to ride within themselves and make somebody else do the work to ensure that when the Schlecks attacked (which they did, repeatedly), they wouldn't be caught out, while at the same time trying to get the group to go fast enough that Sastre didn't get too much of a gap. This meant that despite there being several men in the group and a few attacking (certainly Valverde had a go at one point), none of those men were giving it full gas at all times, whereas Sastre was, meaning that the guy able to ride his own tempo gained time.
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  #32  
Old 02-03-13, 14:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maaaaaaaarten View Post
Yes, the stage Contador rode was 209,5km long and the stage Cobo rode was 142.2km. Contador had to race for more than 60km longer. Contadors race was a bit less than 2 hours longer that day. Also, the stage Contador rode had 5 categorized climbs, while Cobo's stage had only 3. Obviously Cobo did it faster, because Contador's stage was a serious mountain stage instead of that >150k crap we've been getting so much recently.

Froome would've rode conservatively if Contador was there too, so that doesn't change a thing. If these guys couldn't take more than 4min on Monfort, Contador would've probably won. Heck, Cobo took an impressive 1:35 on Sergey Lagutin on one of the toughest climbs used in GT's!
I think Contador was faster on the Angliru, Cobo was only faster on the steep last 6km.
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  #33  
Old 02-03-13, 15:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Rick View Post
I think Contador was faster on the Angliru, Cobo was only faster on the steep last 6km.
Yeah, I was just going with what Airstream said, but indeed, turns out Contador was even faster than Cobo.
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  #34  
Old 02-03-13, 18:14
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To the op's question: Rodriguez said the Vuelta was the easiest grand tour, so Giro-Tour.
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  #35  
Old 02-03-13, 20:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
Average péloton speed at the Tour is higher than at the Vuelta, so it's easier to hold form between the two than from Giro to Tour (also in recent years the gap between the Tour and Vuelta has been shorter, though that also means less recovery time of course).

For reference, we can note top names attempting Giro-Tour doubles in recent years:
Menchov 2008: 5th Giro, 4th Tour
Riccò 2008: 2nd Giro, DSQ Tour
Menchov 2009: 1st Giro, 50th Tour
Sastre 2009: 3rd Giro, 17th Tour
Evans 2010: 5th Giro, 25th Tour
Vinokourov 2010: 6th Giro, 15th Tour
Basso 2010: 1st Giro, 31st Tour
(Contador 2011: 1st Giro, 5th Tour)
Basso 2012: 5th Giro, 25th Tour

And top names attempting Tour-Vuelta doubles in recent years:
Evans 2007: 2nd Tour, 4th Vuelta
Sastre 2007: 4th Tour, 2nd Vuelta
Sastre 2008: 1st Tour, 3rd Vuelta
Valverde 2008: 6th Tour, 5th Vuelta
Evans 2009: 30th Tour, 3rd Vuelta
Rodríguez 2010: 7th Tour, 4th Vuelta
Valverde 2012: 20th Tour, 2nd Vuelta
Froome 2012: 2nd Tour, 4th Vuelta

The amount of people who double up on good performances is higher for the Tour-Vuelta double.
Cold hard facts won't change Airstream's opinion.
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  #36  
Old 02-03-13, 21:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
3 problems for you.

1) Contador attacked at the base, it's just that he only got rid of Rodríguez and Valverde with 2-3kms to go.

2) Contador won the climb on this stage:

Cobo won it on this stage:


Though we can argue about the silliness of the Vuelta's mountains categorisations, there's an uncategorised and a 2nd category climb before the time honoured Cordal-Angliru combo in 2011. In 2008 there was a 3rd category climb and two more 1st category climbs in a much longer stage.

3) Your argument is completely moot anyway as Contador's time from 2008 was 43'12 and Cobo's from 2011 was 43'44, and so unless you contend that Cobo is capable of ripping the fabric of space and time, Contador did complete the climb quicker than Cobo.
I wasn't going to post this at first and decided I would read most of the posts and then read Airstream's responses. Ultiimately this is simply another of Airstream's thinly veiled, obsession/hate fueled attempts to minimize Contador's 2011 accomplishment (Giro/Tour) and boost Froome's 2012 (Tour/Vuelta). Facts completely refuting his blinded perspective have been laid out and still he's shouting the contrary from the rooftops. Even his "facts" have been shown to be imagined by him (Cobo's vs Contador's Angliru ascents) and every way.
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  #37  
Old 02-03-13, 21:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airstream View Post
It means a lot because Leipheimer did a lot of work for Contador. In addition Valverde or Rodriguez even tried to attack so it made the time even faster. Cobo objectively rode the climb in a tt mode.
...and in what alternative universe did you get your original info that Cobo's Angliru ascent was faster than Contador's? Why can't you admit that having an extra 2 hours of racing before the final climb can have an adverse effect on performance? Are you that blinded?

If this were you on the other side of the argument you would be outraged that someone is ignoring the facts.
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  #38  
Old 02-04-13, 07:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angliru View Post
...and in what alternative universe did you get your original info that Cobo's Angliru ascent was faster than Contador's? Why can't you admit that having an extra 2 hours of racing before the final climb can have an adverse effect on performance? Are you that blinded?

If this were you on the other side of the argument you would be outraged that someone is ignoring the facts.
On the forum. I can not admit this because it is just a factor, not a guatantee, especially knowing how riders walk 35km/h during the first hours on long Vuelta stages.

No, I wouldn't be outraged because people see the things under their angle here.

Are you OK? It has nothing to do with Contador and Froome. It is a discussion of subjective perception. This question has no uniquely correct answer because all that is impossible to measure by some absolute categories. Do you have univocal answer on this matter? Ok, but I don't.

Last edited by airstream; 02-04-13 at 08:01.
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  #39  
Old 02-04-13, 17:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
To the op's question: Rodriguez said the Vuelta was the easiest grand tour, so Giro-Tour.
Yet he failed on his attempt. Was his placing worst?
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