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  #2541  
Old 02-03-13, 18:25
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roundabout roundabout is offline
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/apology-to-trent-lowe

Somewhere in all the commotion...
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  #2542  
Old 02-03-13, 18:29
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Mrs John Murphy Mrs John Murphy is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
I'm not throwing mud in anyone's eyes. The data is available for everyone to see. My opinion, looking at the data (median hb, climbing speeds, and median retic stability) lead me to believe that racing is cleaner. It's that simple.

You don't have to agree. I don't care. I'm just saying that is my interpretation.

And if folks are doping, it isn't helping them very much (per climbing speed data), so what do I care? If I think a young talented rider can win clean and won't be put in the "you'll need to dope to win or place" position, then frankly I don't care if some moron is injecting monkey placenta into his brain thinking it'll help. If it doesn't significantly destabilize the opportunities highly talented and clean riders have, I'm not going to go ape**** about it. Waste.

What's not a waste of energy is making sure we don't enter another period where the doping methods outstrip large differences in talent. That is when the whole thing goes sideways.

Also, I'm not going to lie and say "dammit, it's all dirty!! Especially those evil feckers at Sky!!".... I don't believe that. Why would I say it? Just to feel good about myself?

As for Walsh, I talk to David quite a bit, and I think he is of the same opinion. At least in our discussions he seems fairly convince by the data. But then, it's his job to always be a bit on guard. And I'm sure you can find some sound byte that shows he's suspect. But sound bytes you get to read in the press don't equal knowing someone for a decade and speaking with them regularly.

That's the thing, you guys try to place me at odds with Kimmage and Walsh or whatever. These people have stayed in my guest room and had BBQ ribs at my dinner table. And we debate this stuff, but all in good humor. I listen to them, they listen to me. It's constructive. Which is something you could aim for.


I first had dinner with David in 2003. And admitted my whole story to him around that time as well. He kept it private, which was nice of him... But anyway, just saying', I was hang in with Walsh before it was what all the cool kids wanted to do.

I know I'm really annoying you with that last paragraph. It's intentional.

JV
What does 'cleaner' mean to you?

Does it mean that the peloton is still doped but the volume of drugs being taken is less than it was in the EPO/USP era? That riders are on the 'light' option rather than the full fat doping regime?

Or

That while some riders and teams are doping to the hilt, many teams and riders are now off the hot sauce?

Cleaner is a little bit like saying 'Daniel Benson is less of a moron, he only said 5 stupid things today instead of 10.' He's still a moron, he's still saying stupid things, and more to the point, if those 5 stupid things are epically stupid, I don't see that it is too much of an improvement.

Clean to me means dope free. I can't say that the sport is getting 'cleaner' when I watch the Vuelta or the TDF and watch Dertie/Saxo and Wiggins/Froome/Sky riding as they did.

Having looked at the numbers - what percentage of the TDF finishers do you think were dope free? Looking at the top 20 and having looked at their numbers what percentage do you think were dope free?

BTW - You never did answer my question about RH and doping at his previous teams.

To add to this - have you spoken to Robbie Hunter about Rabo - has he also been made to speak to the authorities as Dekker has, or will he only have to speak if asked?
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  #2543  
Old 02-03-13, 19:18
carl spackler carl spackler is offline
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Default Allen Lim

Forgive me if somewhere out there I would be able to find it, but I have never seen a satisfactory answer to why he was working with Garmin, and as recently as 1.5 years ago with VandeVelde and others.

I'm a Garmin fan but this has bugged me. Landis's claims, plus JV's friendship with Landis(so he had to know what Lim did for Landis) and Lim being central to Garmin 2008-2010.

Its not so much an accusation or an innuendo, but rather a legit question. Did Lim come clean to Garmin the way supposedly TD, CVV, DZ and others? There seems to be no explicit discussion of this.
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  #2544  
Old 02-03-13, 19:46
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond View Post
Would you agree numbers can be manipulated? In due course, we also like numbers, why aren't those numbers been made public? Another one, why is it that the pre - Tour medicals [like VO2max tests] aren't for the grand public anymore? [that is clearly an UCI matter]

But now a real and direct question to you. Did you not have to train your balls of to come to that Ventoux TT? What was the Holy Grail there? The EPO gave you a boost in the race, but how about in training? If I boost my crit to 52 I will not fly up the Ventoux, that's for sure.

PS: 48 to 52 is something differrent like other riders who have a natural of 41, do you not feel b!ichted sometimes?
The answer is funny as heck. Yes, I trained my balls off, had a good 3-4 months with no colds or sickness... I mean, the 15 years of racing a bike and training quite a bit before the Ventoux helped too. 10 day stage races at 18 yrs old.... Junior World Championships... etc. end of the days, in my era, the guys who doped, doped because they had made it to the highest level, clean, from genetics and training. they were the best guys. But... Then, wham, the speed of the whole damn peloton goes nuts from 94-96 and its a case of dope or leave. And most doped. some left. When I look at it, at the highest level, usually the guys who left had wealthy families, a University education, or whatnot. Those who saw cycling as their only way out, stayed. And doped. I didn't have a wealthy family, but I also didn't need a way out. Probably why I doped, won a bit, then retired at 29. Sort of one foot in, one foot out.

Anyhow, back to your question: That last 2% that allowed me to go crazy fast? Beyond the dope? I had a nasty breakup w a girlfriend and kinda didn't eat much for like a week, mid/Late April. I lost 2kgs because of that. Which put me down around 59kgs. I never raced that light again.

JV
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  #2545  
Old 02-03-13, 19:54
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by carl spackler View Post
Forgive me if somewhere out there I would be able to find it, but I have never seen a satisfactory answer to why he was working with Garmin, and as recently as 1.5 years ago with VandeVelde and others.

I'm a Garmin fan but this has bugged me. Landis's claims, plus JV's friendship with Landis(so he had to know what Lim did for Landis) and Lim being central to Garmin 2008-2010.

Its not so much an accusation or an innuendo, but rather a legit question. Did Lim come clean to Garmin the way supposedly TD, CVV, DZ and others? There seems to be no explicit discussion of this.
It's a valid question. While VDV, Zab etc. I was well aware of their histories, Allen portrayed himself as "just the coach" to Floyd and not more. He always told me he knew something was going on, but he wasn't a part of it. He said Floyd "shielded" him from it all.

I Have no idea if this is just complete crap or true. I still get conflicting stories. Whatever. Allen was straight with us. He was the biggest proponent of the no needles policy when we indexed that in 2008. He never had access to medical files and certainly not blood test records. He coached our guys. Period. He is not an MD. But I haven't spoken to him since 2009 when he left for Radio Shack. That move gave me the impression that he was a little bit "whichever way the wind blows..."

BTW - Allen was hardly central. Our best years have been since he left. As i later found, there are better sports scientists. He was just a very good promotor.

JV
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  #2546  
Old 02-03-13, 19:58
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Froome19 Froome19 is offline
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JV do you believe that a doctor like Leinders would remain in the sport working as a normal doctor within teams after having being so heavily immersed in doping programmes?

And not if it is possible but rather if it is likely. Association with guys like Ferrari immediately condemn a rider, but would that be the same with all doctors involved in the doping programmes at the time? Another example would OPQS's Ibarguren Taus.

In short. To what extent would you look at this list http://velorooms.com/the-dark-side/t...k-in-progress/ and say that those names cast considerable suspicion on those teams?
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  #2547  
Old 02-03-13, 20:04
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
What does 'cleaner' mean to you?

Does it mean that the peloton is still doped but the volume of drugs being taken is less than it was in the EPO/USP era? That riders are on the 'light' option rather than the full fat doping regime?

Or

That while some riders and teams are doping to the hilt, many teams and riders are now off the hot sauce?

Cleaner is a little bit like saying 'Daniel Benson is less of a moron, he only said 5 stupid things today instead of 10.' He's still a moron, he's still saying stupid things, and more to the point, if those 5 stupid things are epically stupid, I don't see that it is too much of an improvement.

Clean to me means dope free. I can't say that the sport is getting 'cleaner' when I watch the Vuelta or the TDF and watch Dertie/Saxo and Wiggins/Froome/Sky riding as they did.

Having looked at the numbers - what percentage of the TDF finishers do you think were dope free? Looking at the top 20 and having looked at their numbers what percentage do you think were dope free?

BTW - You never did answer my question about RH and doping at his previous teams.

To add to this - have you spoken to Robbie Hunter about Rabo - has he also been made to speak to the authorities as Dekker has, or will he only have to speak if asked?

If he's asked, he will go it. I can't go around knocking on various ADAs saying "hey, we got something for you!!' I just demand that the guys cooperate and are honest, if asked.

End of the day, various ADAs are already leaning on me/our team quite a bit. We're the team that won't BS!! yay!! Easy target. Is cleaning up the past of this sport our sole responsibility? I'll do my part, but it's getting a bit lonely out here! And as you know, I think if every other team instituted policies like ours, well... the whole truth and reconciliation thing would already be happening.

What I'm saying is: We will do our part. Already have. But it drives me nuts that I'm expected to go push Robbie Hunter to knock on ADAs door, unsolicited, when there are folks yelling at me "Your team is full of ex-dopers, why can't you be more like Sky? Or Movistar?"

This is why wholesale T&R is the only way out of this mess.

JV
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  #2548  
Old 02-03-13, 20:07
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by Froome19 View Post
JV do you believe that a doctor like Leinders would remain in the sport working as a normal doctor within teams after having being so heavily immersed in doping programmes?

And not if it is possible but rather if it is likely. Association with guys like Ferrari immediately condemn a rider, but would that be the same with all doctors involved in the doping programmes at the time? Another example would OPQS's Ibarguren Taus.

In short. To what extent would you look at this list http://velorooms.com/the-dark-side/t...k-in-progress/ and say that those names cast considerable suspicion on those teams?
I think if you pay him enough to tend to ingrown toenails, he will. Management's decision making is first priority. Hope they have correct priorities. Never met the guy, so I don't know what his deal is.
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  #2549  
Old 02-03-13, 20:08
janraaskalt janraaskalt is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
End of the day, various ADAs are already leaning on me/our team quite a bit. We're the team that won't BS!! yay!! Easy target. Is cleaning up the past of this sport our sole responsibility? I'll do my part, but it's getting a bit lonely out here! And as you know, I think if every other team instituted policies like ours, well... the whole truth and reconciliation thing would already be happening.
Since I cannot expect you to name the worst teams: in your opinion which World Tour team has the next best policies (after Garmin)? Or rather which teams do you see as an ally?
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  #2550  
Old 02-03-13, 20:10
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by roundabout View Post
All this is pretty accurate. One thing I take exception to is the "no blackmail"....dude, I have those emails. I published them. It sure felt like blackmail and read like blackmail to me. But then, maybe I'm just too sensitive.
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