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  #3281  
Old 02-08-13, 06:32
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Originally Posted by Ferminal View Post
Well, in the context of this forum where we are anons... it would be up there in what you can do to question someone's character.
I think you went over their heads
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  #3282  
Old 02-08-13, 07:34
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Originally Posted by ElChingon View Post
I think you went over their heads
i) Not everyone is anonymous
ii) I quite like Ferminal as a mod (and a poster) so I see no need to try and argue this point any further as I feel it will just go round in circles.
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  #3283  
Old 02-08-13, 08:21
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Originally Posted by Don't be late Pedro View Post
i) Not everyone is anonymous
ii) I quite like Ferminal as a mod (and a poster) so I see no need to try and argue this point any further as I feel it will just go round in circles.
Yes, but if you prove it you'll be banned.
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  #3284  
Old 02-08-13, 12:18
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Originally Posted by python View Post
interesting !

the confirmed and undisputed absolute second to bpc in the incarnation departmental has some advice for bpc...?

perhaps those freshmen mods introduced by suzan need to read some old mod room threads on the poster and his buds clogging the thread about mods with personal messages instead of using pms/twitter...whatever.
---
a disclaimer is needed here: of course i do not have nor ever had any aceess to the cn mod private forum. however, i did have a part (confirmed by several cn mods both in private and in public - still searchable) in exposing the bpc adviser(s) or his critics -like the poster above - including their multiple clones that were as uncomplicated as the bpc critic expressed....whatever....
Just a thought - why not let ancient history stay just that, why try and drag it up now? For what purpose? Another thought - have you considered a sense of humor transplant?
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  #3285  
Old 02-08-13, 12:42
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i dont find a sock puppet master pontificating about his collegue's clones names in the mod thread humorous... besides he was far less creative... and the history ALWAYS repeats itself, ask some mods around.
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Last edited by python; 02-08-13 at 12:47.
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  #3286  
Old 02-08-13, 17:09
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Originally Posted by python View Post
i dont find a sock puppet master pontificating about his collegue's clones names in the mod thread humorous... besides he was far less creative... and the history ALWAYS repeats itself, ask some mods around.
At the risk of being once again lumped in with 3 guys from Texas whom I have never met, not to mention being told to go and take care of my "little bike shop", WTH are you on about now, dude? I am not sure you would qualify as an expert on humor as you are about as funny as a heart attack, just not quite as much fun.
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  #3287  
Old 02-09-13, 02:29
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BTW - pretty much every one of the last half dozen posts is treading on personal attack territory. Let's tone it down, please.
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  #3288  
Old 02-09-13, 03:23
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Originally Posted by Mrs John Murphy View Post
If telling the mods that they are not very good at their jobs is bullying then I am more than happy to ease off. But like I say - how would you like criticism expressed? What would you like us to do when you do make terrible decisions? . . .
MJM - this is a reasonable question - and I'm going to take a stab at an answer.

First, following the wisdom of BroDeal: Messages are usually better understood when they are a concise paragraph rather than a rambling challenge to the length of War and Peace.

My primary point is "No personal attacks. Attack the message, not the messenger."

My secondary point has to do with humor and it's use. Sarcasm, snark, slams - are difficult to use. They are generally tolerated on this forum, when aimed at public figures who are not a known participant in the discussion. When the target is a participant in the discussion, they are likely to be over the line - a "personal attack" - and thus, not permitted.

That is the "brevity" version. What follows is the "War and Peace" version.

I found two posts, on another forum, that are very well written, probably better than I could do.
What's the difference between a "personal attack" and "fair criticism"?

Use of Sarcasm "Most people think they know what sarcasm is and could recognize it if they heard it. Most people would be wrong..."

I also introduce those sources to clearly show that these questions are not new, they have been dealt with before, and clearly.

I would like to use some examples from your posts. And I will offer some opinion on the "critiquing the Mods" business.

First example - a post that passes the personal attack test.
MJM "JV is fairly evasive when it comes to discussing what he knows about his riders. . . " Why does this pass? Because, 1) JV is a public figure 2) This claim is readily verified within the forum threads, and could be supported by posts by JV himself. Again - go here for more detail: What's the difference between a "personal attack" and "fair criticism"?

2nd, a fail. MJM: "If you pay peanuts then you get monkeys. ..." This is an ad hominem attack on the mods, in the guise of humor. It is over the line.

Similarly, "Frodo Cavendish gets given an etch-a-sketch. They used to give him crayons at Columbia HGH but he kept eating them. " along with "and some vaseline" get a pass, although barely. While " I just think you are not very good at your jobs", and "They are not very good at their jobs either. " do not pass. The first two are not personal attacks - the targets are not forum participants to our knowledge. However, they do beg the question of what is acceptable, they could be inflammatory (as in flame-war inflammatory, and thus prohibited on that account), and they border on being off-topic. The latter two are personal attacks. They are quite clearly about the messengers - not the message.

You are a talented commenter - and I find more posts that add to the conversation than not. But you are also talented at the types of arguments found on this page: A List of Fallacious Arguments. What should be added is that many arguments are won using such "fallacious" arguments, and I would judge that you are accustomed to "winning" on a regular basis, using such techniques. These are methods to persuade an audience, without really addressing the argument and logic. Common enough in politics.

But again - we have our "line in the sand" - No Personal Attacks. In addition to many good posts, when I search all your posts, I see more than just a few that clearly cross that line. And didn't get caught by a mod. Now, I can hear it already - Amsterhammer started this thread with it - "but nobody did anything over THERE and THAT was way worse!" To which I have two very clear, and very simple answers.

When you get a speeding ticket, do you get a pass because the day before you got the ticket, you and every other car on that road passed the same point, going even faster than the ticketed speed? Uh, no. Same thing here.

Secondly, the UNwritten rule for modding in these forums is, and has been, "Prune only as necessary to keep alive". In other words, VERY laissez-faire. These are my words - this rule IS UNwritten - but I see it in the history. For instance, in my research for this post, I found many forums prohibit negative comments about a mod, outright. Not allowed, period. Complaints go straight to the chief mod. I don't think Dan wants that here. So our free-wheeling ways are pretty liberal, by comparison. But, on the other hand, we are not Usenet (which is anarchy).

Two final comments on personal attacks. An allegation in the forum that a new member is a banned user is a personal attack. Allegations, in or out of the forum, that a user has broken rules, including avoiding a ban, need proof. If we can not find proof, the issue is not actionable. If you think someone is a banned user - send us a message, and tell us why. Use the same methods you would use for a post - if you have a link, send the link. We have tools, but they do have their limits. On the other hand, if we have received word that some people believe a user has broken rules, but we can find no proof - or we even have counter-testimony (which makes it a he-said-she-said), well - what would you do?

And lastly, this is not a post for just you MJM. I've noticed a few people have escaped the snark radar for personal attacks in the past. But, I think you are a strong, resilient, and flexible enough person to be the example I used.
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Last edited by hiero2; 02-09-13 at 03:27.
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  #3289  
Old 02-09-13, 03:54
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ElChingon ElChingon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiero2 View Post
MJM - this is a reasonable question - and I'm going to take a stab at an answer.
...
You broke the rule, what's the point of listing a rule if you break it?
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  #3290  
Old 02-09-13, 05:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElChingon View Post
You broke the rule, what's the point of listing a rule if you break it?
I broke the rule? Which rule? What are you talking about? Be specific. If you see a flaw, point it out - but point it out so that everyone, including me, can look at what you are saying clearly. Point to exactly which sentence breaks the rule. Point to the rule you think is broken (although, if I have to guess, I would guess the "no personal attack" rule, but that isn't clear)


Btw - the source I quoted is really very helpful for seeing how to post and avoid personal attacks. It lists plenty of sources and references too. Won't take too long to read, even if you go to all of them.

What's the difference between a "personal attack" and "fair criticism"?
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