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  #161  
Old 02-11-13, 05:45
PACONi PACONi is offline
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Originally Posted by Galic Ho View Post
That is always the baseline assumption. How good was he really? At the worst like you said, he gets dragged down 30 runs in his average score to a Garfield Sobers or a Graham Pollock. Mr Cricket was averaging 70 in his first 15-20 tests. Dropped a lot afterwards though, nearer to his retirement. So if Hussey could look brilliant for a short time, Ponting and Clarke have done the same, then the deciding factor must be time. So he is still an outlier in modern times if he played now, but the number of standard deviations he is from the mean, well if gets reduced. Then again, there were no helmets and no limits on how many high balls were bowled in an over when The Don was in his glory. Then again I doubt many players back then faced constant barrages of 140km+ deliveries for over after over.

Problem is Bradman's era had so few tests. But he was still twice as good as his team mates. Ponting for a while around 2003-2005 was that good. Shane Warne and McGrath were as well, twice as good as the next guy. But playing the Devils advocate card is the key...he'd still be numero uno but closer to Sobers. The mark of a very strong batsman is an average of 50. Lots of guys hit that. They have spells where they are on fire, then crash back to earth. Bradman never did and I think that is conditional on the way the game was played. Fewer games and more down time. That is impossible in todays era. Sure drugs might help make up the deficit, but we will never see the likes of The Don again unless the game changes. Money says it won't.

Time is the test in all sports. Just compare all these sports mentioned in the reports for the past 15 years to how they were in the early 80s and before. Could yesterdays heroes to the fans be great today? Well yeah, but they'd need drugs. Also I thought of another guy who is a great but size means today he'd be limited. Dally Messenger. Union and Rugby champion. Actually the first true natural to emerge in both sports 100 years ago. Same size as Bradman and Laver. Okay, an inch taller but still small. I'm not suggesting you need to go back 50 years to get an idea, the 80s is more than adequate. Doping went apocalyptic in the 90s so the 80s serves as a good measure for contrasts.
Bradman played on uncovered pitches. With today's pitches, monster bats, and protective gear I wouldn't be surprised to see him improve his average.
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  #162  
Old 02-11-13, 07:01
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Galic Ho Galic Ho is offline
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Bradman played on uncovered pitches. With today's pitches, monster bats, and protective gear I wouldn't be surprised to see him improve his average.
Sssshhhh! We're not supposed to talk him up that much.

I thought I mentioned this somewhere. But it is natural assumption. Wait, I alluded to this but nobody caught on. When he first batted on a wet wicket, he didn't last very long. The next time he didn't make the same error. Was very hard to remove. He'd never seen a delivery move when the wicket and ball were wet.

I also heard that tomorrow we will be told the names of the 6 NRL teams being investigated. Well sometime soon at least. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

So before the storm hits, how about some likely names? I'll get the ball rolling.

Manly. Kind of obvious why. Their players are dodgy. Heck, one got away with rape. My bad...he was cleared by the courts and promptly dumped by his missus after the fiasco. Upstanding bloke, pillar of the community, ahem...Manly football scumbag community. Wanna take a guess why Des Hasler left? The team is dirty. The kind of dirty that breeds their recent success.

Titans. Because they hit so high and crashed oh so hard. Top 4 one season, bottom 4 next season. They've been in and out of the papers for supposed dodgy dealings.

Storm. Why? Better question. Why not? Hello....salary cap scandal. We know they bend the rules. Oh and their side has half the Queensland Origin squad on it's roster, or did at one stage. Apparently Craig Bellamy is addressing the press tomorrow, again it's what the radio was saying this morning, about his future at the club. If he's leaving, they're dead set dirty as hell. Next to Manly, most successful club the last few years.

Broncos. Noooo! Why the Broncos? Yeah I like em. But they're owned by the same conglomerate who own the Storm. They broke the salary cap too, but you didn't hear about that did you? It's okay to pick on the Mexican team, but we can't touch the Canadians and their hometown heroes of Brisbane. They make up the other half of the Qld Origin squad. The stories I've heard about their boys! Almost as good as the Matty Johns group menage (insert really big number in French) and the glorious allegations from the Bulldogs boys back in 2004. Far too many high level players are dirty. If they're not being put through the grinder, they should be. Obvious choice to look at for drugs.

Dragons. Why? Because like Manly, people love to hate them. Naturally that makes them dirty. Are we really supposed to buy that Wayne Bennett's appointment secured a minor Premiership and Grand Final win in two years? Clean? With those muppets? After all he was at the Broncos and they're like League Gods up in Qld. It's not the plays, it's the methodology.

Rabbitohs. Went from zero to minor wannabe hero. Nah, they're just easy to pick on because they're the Rabbits. That and anyone working for a team owned by Russell Crowe has to be bent. The man throws phones at humble concierges FFS!

I know this much. The big teams are protected so far. Their owners are select people. Very rich people. Manly and the Storm are the obvious choices. Too good and too consistent for too long. How far does their protection go. Well it didn't cover breaking the salary cap in a blatant way. That's happened twice the last decade. I think it's happened a lot, but it's kept covered. The authorities looking at connections will look at the random hirings. The long time staff won't squeal. It's the guys who are moving about on random contracts, the ones with dodgy connections and shady dealings with gangs and known criminals. You work with one of them, you're number is up. I think most big teams will have that angle covered or if it hasn't been it soon will be.
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  #163  
Old 02-11-13, 07:02
Haynzie Haynzie is offline
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As an avid Rugby Union supporter now this has to be one of the most obvious sports for drug use on the international scene. South Africa have to be the worst culprits in my mind but

Have a look at team photo's from the early 80's (and before) and compare with now. It is the change in body shapes that are the most striking.


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watching England vs Scotland last weekend, let's just say the size and speed of the English team was impressive... ;-)
It always is when they are playing Scotland
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  #164  
Old 02-11-13, 07:23
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Have a look at team photo's from the early 80's (and before) and compare with now. It is the change in body shapes that are the most striking.
it DOES look funny, but its not really informative. The game was amatuer, became semiu professional late 80s early 90s, didnt turn fully professional until 1996 from memory. What is more informative is to look at differences in the past 10 years, say the 1999 or 2003 World Cup and the 2011 World cup. A definite change in size and shape.

The BEST way though is to compare hakas

Here is the 1979 version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBCpPGNDr1U

and here is the 2011 World Cup version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjVqZkDZrgg
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  #165  
Old 02-11-13, 07:27
Haynzie Haynzie is offline
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Originally Posted by sittingbison View Post
it DOES look funny, but its not really informative. The game was amatuer, became semiu professional late 80s early 90s, didnt turn fully professional until 1996 from memory.
That's true.... most of them had huge beer guts until the 90's
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  #166  
Old 02-11-13, 07:58
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Galic Ho Galic Ho is offline
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I saw the ad for the Wahlberg film Gallic, and thought, wow, back to calvin klein underwear modelling days.

and the rugby union film about mandalla and the saffa team? matt damon big time roids.

the tell on roids in this era, whatever it is they are using, igf-1, insulin, what it is I dont know, but this new stuff, the last six years, the Usain Bolt era, is brilliant stuff for making superhuman steve austin 6 million dollar men.

the tell is, look for those muscle groups, that are difficult, or nigh impossible to build, in the gym, even with the old roids, working with free weights, machines, hammer smith machines, whatever. where they work, even in a full motion eg bicep curl, you are working that unilateral plane against gravity. are they called concentric actions?

what is building these new muscle groups in such lithe and lean look (even when they weigh more) is isometric exercises. constant tensions. (swimming, riding, constant tension/resistance thru the movement)

you do your normal gym work in the free weights and machine section, working against gravity on your legs for eg.

then the next day, you do 10 40yard sprint repeats at 95%.

Now the hip flexor and hip adbuctor, very difficult to have a perfect gym exercise (yeah, it CAN be done in gym) but they want ATHLETES, and they now have created a composite exercise hypertrophy, to get mass do some composite movements in the gym, but you focus is on your athleticism on the park. the sprint repeats are building these "bowed" quads, with a "sweep" look they call it in bodybuilding. And their legs are bigger than when they were only doing Tom Platz leg weights movements in the gym in the 80s and 90s. how can they be bigger without all the pure resistance exercises, how can they look more lean, and with this perfect shape, the bow and sweep on the outer abductor hip flexor. you dont get this from doing leg extensions. its an concentric movement from hip-quad joint.

other muscle group is upper trapezius. yeah, shoulder press and shrugs can build it in the gym undoubtedly, but is a very difficult muscle group to have prominent mass.

they can build this just with explosive movements like the arm swing motion in sprint repeats!

those are my theories.

they are heavier now, but the legs look skinner because of their shape, even tho they are carrying more mass and are heavier.

it is like 1980s and william refrigerator perry on the chicago bears was the first offensive linesman to 300lbs, now all offensive linesman are at 300, some even 350 p'raps, and can run a 4.4 40 yard.

NOT NORMAL
A prime example of the type of abnormal build in these football codes is one Sonny Bill Williams. He's been in the news lately. My God that boy grew when he went to France to play Union. He's a monster now. Looks lithe and athletic, but carries so much weight in terms of pure muscle. Just doesn't seem right.

Regarding the muscle movements. You meant a combo of eccentric and concentric movements. But I understood your point. These guys are getting specific isolated muscle groups beyond the size and scope one would expect if you were just hitting up the gym. One would expect an improvement via mandatory compound movements with normal resistance training. But these guys are getting the strength gains one gets from isolated exercises for specific muscle groups WITHOUT the massive bulking that traditionally occurs, ie; as you'd see in a body builder. Note body builders athletic ability is practically mute. They cannot run to save themselves. But these guys have the upper body physique and strength that says they shouldn't be able to run...but they do. Plus with the mass they now possess they hit like a truck on impact.

As for the trapezius, it along with the latissimus dorsi are hard to accentuate. They require specific gym work. Getting that classical V shape in guys, especially one that stands out takes a lot of work. It's what the Mr Olympia events of the 80s focused on. The era after Arnold. Still prominent today, but the legs and abs get a lot of focus too. Those guys are absurd in their proportions and total weight. You have to really bulk up...footie players are missing that component. They've got the strength without excess muscle mass, thus allowing them to still run. Basically they are running tanks on a football field.
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  #167  
Old 02-11-13, 08:51
sugarman sugarman is offline
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Originally Posted by PACONi View Post
Bradman played on uncovered pitches. With today's pitches, monster bats, and protective gear I wouldn't be surprised to see him improve his average.
He also never got the chance to test his skill against the mighty Bangladeshi's, or belt 380 against a 3rd string Zimbabwean side a la Matthew Hayden.
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  #168  
Old 02-11-13, 09:00
sugarman sugarman is offline
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Originally Posted by Garry Allen View Post
Actually its more than 2 players. Essendon is a club that has been very successful in the past. And wrt rugby league, 6 clubs are implicated but have not yet been named (in a 16? team competition) Basically the 2 major winter football codes have been implicated.
Be interesting to see what the NRL investigation results in - if anything - but 6 out of 16 teams involved suggests a total failure of whatever anti-doping measures they're supposed to have in place.

Manly $1.01 to be at the top of the list.

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I don't think it's spread to the point the perception of "The Olympics" is threatened.
The Olympics is teflon when it comes to doping, its surprising anyone still believes in it, but yea perception never seems to be threatened. Maybe 4 years between events helps people forget...
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  #169  
Old 02-11-13, 09:35
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Some NRL clubs and players will be facing scrutiny in the next few days. My pick, among several candidates: Paul Gallen of the Cronulla Sharks.
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  #170  
Old 02-11-13, 10:30
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JimmyFingers JimmyFingers is offline
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Originally Posted by sittingbison View Post
it DOES look funny, but its not really informative. The game was amatuer, became semiu professional late 80s early 90s, didnt turn fully professional until 1996 from memory. What is more informative is to look at differences in the past 10 years, say the 1999 or 2003 World Cup and the 2011 World cup. A definite change in size and shape.
This seems like good analysis. There has always been big slabs of meat in rugby, but these days they all look so toned and athletic, rather than the lumbering hulks of old. Obviously with the onset of the professional era the nature of the game has changed, with teams playing a high-intensity, fast-ball running game involving multiple phases. Perhaps the physical requirements of the modern game are offset by the large numbers of substitutions allowed now, but it is now 80 minutes of constant physical effort, rather than the large forwards trotting towards the breakdown and the wingers barely getting a touch all game.

The sheer size of a three-quarter line is frightening. When I was a kid they'd all be in the pack.
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