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  #13201  
Old 02-20-13, 19:16
Tyler'sTwin Tyler'sTwin is offline
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The 10% reduction in power outputs over the last few years
Prove it.

A good start might be to compare Toussuire in -06 vs -12 and Peyresourde in -07 vs -12.
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  #13202  
Old 02-20-13, 19:21
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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"I remember a guy who came to cycling late, turned pro very late in fact, and spent the first few years of his career bouncing around small teams, not doing many big races or doing too much of note. Those races where he did perform well, however, had a pretty common thread running through them: big, long mountains. He was good at riding them. He did eventually get onto a decent sized team, and posted some good results in short stage races, but he was already 30 and so he was rather overlooked by larger teams as a prospect.

Then there was a big doping bust, and several of his peers and those who had previously been beating him were shown to be doping. Cycling, so we were told, cleaned up its act. And this we have found, thanks to the Reasoned Decision, to have been true. With a number of the people who'd been holding him down now suspended or jettisoned from their teams, he got a ride at a bigger team than he had previously been able to ride for, and that would give him a chance to ride Grand Tours for the first time. And, what we discovered was: he was good at them! His natural climbing talent that had shone through despite competing consistently against dopers was now allayed with an ability to recover that, now that cycling was cleaning up his act, was able to compete on a level playing field at last. Finally, at the very end of his peak years, he was going to be able to make it to the top!

Of course, things got even better after that. Performing so well in a major race now that the opposition was of course clean meant that the team, which had of course been shorn of all those evil nasty dopers, could now focus around this champion rider, enabling him to give the best possible attempt at a Grand Tour win. For two more years he toiled, with injuries derailing his shots at victory. But then, the unthinkable happened! A parcours well suited to him in the biggest race of his season! A parcours well suited to him along with a weak field of opposition, with the top men from the previous year's race all absent! A once in a lifetime opportunity, his men mobilized all their meagre resources towards this one goal.

However, it was not to be, and there was to be heartbreak at the last. Where Sky's resources could turn such a situation into a comfortable, dominant, easy victory, our unassuming, beloved hero did not have the same support to call on, and they fell at the last hurdle, despite throwing everything there was to throw onto the line. The tragedy of the man as he crossed the finishing line was that he was simultaneously taking in his greatest triumph and being subjected to his biggest failure. The era of clean cycling could take him far, but it couldn't take him all the way. He needed more. The story has a bitter end."

A passage extracted from the book "People Whose Transformations Were Less Shocking Than Those At Team Sky: A Collection of Short Stories" by Libertine Seguros.
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  #13203  
Old 02-20-13, 19:26
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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5. What is often overlooked. The 10% reduction in power outputs over the last few years means new riders will emerge as previously dominant doped riders are no longer competitive without doping - Basso is a prime example. Under this scenario, it would be predicted that riders such as Froome would emerge.
So what you're saying is, the entire péloton except Chris Froome doped en masse until August 2011, and then every single rider became clean en masse as well?

Also, if the péloton cleans up, the advantages of doping become more obvious. In 1998 there were 10-15 Riccardo Riccòs wearing out their brake pads on the switchbacks of Alpe d'Huez. In 2008 - far from the cleanest Tour in living memory - he stood out and looked ridiculous. Kohl looked way less ridiculous in the Tour than Sella and Riccò did in the Giro, but he was still doping. You see, the amount of doping that would turn you into Bjarne Riis isn't necessary now. The péloton hasn't stopped doping, but the amounts you can get away with are much, much less. An amount of dope that would turn a mediocre cyclist into a decent domestique in 1998 might be enough dope to turn you into a GC podium rider in 2013. The results improve as the péloton becomes cleaner, but it absolutely categorically does NOT mean that those riders whose results improved as the most egregious dopers slowed down were necessarily clean.

Disagree? Next time you're in Vienna, pop down Triesterstraße. There's a big bike shop there, have a look around. Ask for Bernhard, if he's there. He's usually happy to talk to customers.
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Last edited by Libertine Seguros; 02-20-13 at 19:33.
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  #13204  
Old 02-20-13, 19:33
mastersracer mastersracer is offline
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Originally Posted by Tyler'sTwin View Post
Prove it.

A good start might be to compare Toussuire in -06 vs -12 and Peyresourde in -07 vs -12.
the only way to make sense of Vayer's 'numbers' is to divide by 0...
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  #13205  
Old 02-20-13, 19:33
Dr. Maserati Dr. Maserati is offline
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It's easy.
I appreciate that you put some effort in to addressing these points, but its more simplistic than easy.

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1. Wiggins' performance at the 2012 Tour is consistent with his performances going back to 2004 according to a critical power plot.
Where is this critical power plot? He finished his first GT in 05 in 123rd position.
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Originally Posted by mastersracer View Post
2. Wiggin's 2009 Tour performance was the result of his first year dedicated entirely to the road following his decision to leave the track after the 2008 Olympics. It took place on a team widely regarded to be the best case for clean cycling. If Wiggins' 2012 Tour performance was doped, then one is committed to his 2009 performance as doped as well, which means Garmin would be as dirty as Sky. Maybe, but this is a big leap.
No - if Wiggins did dope in 09 it may have been independent of Garmin (or in 12 independent of Sky) - this is just a strawman.

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3. Sky's marginal gains approach utilizes plausible incremental advances in training, equipment, and management.
.....And doctors like Leinders.

And there is nothing particularly unique in Skys approach- but even accepting 'marginal gains' it should only only yield marginal increases.

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4. Sky is more disciplined and structured. Nibali regrets not going to Sky because he realizes it is the best team. Their approach comes out of British Cycling, which has a proven record of success and has never had a rider implicated in doping.
I believe track is slightly better than road whn it comes to PEDs.
But even still BC had Rob Hayles had a +50% HCT and Neil Campbell was banned in 2000.

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Originally Posted by mastersracer View Post
5. What is often overlooked. The 10% reduction in power outputs over the last few years means new riders will emerge as previously dominant doped riders are no longer competitive without doping - Basso is a prime example. Under this scenario, it would be predicted that riders such as Froome would emerge.
Where is that published - what years?

Froome??
Taking it as is, the above actually might give some benefit to your Wiggins argument, but it does not relate to Froome IMO.
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6. No Sky performance has been documented to be physiologically suspicious by sports scientists examining power outputs during the last 2 Tours.
About as relevant as "never tested positive".

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Originally Posted by mastersracer View Post
almost forgot: Wiggins won the Tour because it had over 100km of ITT, few real mountain finishes, and Schleck and Contador did not participate.
It was an ideal (even unique) scenario for Wiggins to win the Tour - the question is not that though, its how he is at that pointy end in the first incidence.
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  #13206  
Old 02-20-13, 19:33
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Froome19 Froome19 is offline
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Vaughters has admitted himself that Garmin had nothing to do with Wiggins' transformation in 2009. Wiggins worked with Rod Ellingworth and Nigel Mitchell, both British Cycling employees at the time and both Sky employees from 2010 onwards. Not that I think all of the other riders on Garmin have been clean but lets get the facts right.

Rob ''50%'' Hayles says hi btw. And then there's David Millar. Very good friends with a certain Sir Dave Brailsford who was with Millar on the night of his arrest.
I would believe that Vaughters would have known if his Tour leader (true not necessarily at the beginning) was doping.
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Gratz to Cav.
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  #13207  
Old 02-20-13, 19:38
mastersracer mastersracer is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
So what you're saying is, the entire péloton except Chris Froome doped en masse until August 2011, and then every single rider became clean en masse as well?

Also, if the péloton cleans up, the advantages of doping become more obvious. In 1998 there were 10-15 Riccardo Riccòs wearing out their brake pads on the switchbacks of Alpe d'Huez. In 2008 - far from the cleanest Tour in living memory - he stood out and looked ridiculous. Kohl looked way less ridiculous in the Tour than Sella and Riccò did in the Giro, but he was still doping. You see, the amount of doping that would turn you into Bjarne Riis isn't necessary now. The péloton hasn't stopped doping, but the amounts you can get away with are much, much less. An amount of dope that would turn a mediocre cyclist into a decent domestique in 1998 might be enough dope to turn you into a GC podium rider in 2013. The results improve as the péloton becomes cleaner, but it absolutely categorically does NOT mean that those riders whose results improved as the most egregious dopers slowed down were necessarily clean.

Disagree? Next time you're in Vienna, pop down Triesterstraße. There's a big bike shop there, have a look around. Ask for Bernhard, if he's there. He's usually happy to talk to customers.
Yes, this is obvious, but it just demonstrates that Froome's performance cannot be taken as evidence of doping. Kohl tested positive and his manager was arrested. Performance alone isn't evidence. But, look at how these threads are full of accusations against Froome based on nothing but performance.
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  #13208  
Old 02-20-13, 20:30
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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Yes, this is obvious, but it just demonstrates that Froome's performance cannot be taken as evidence of doping. Kohl tested positive and his manager was arrested. Performance alone isn't evidence. But, look at how these threads are full of accusations against Froome based on nothing but performance.
Did you read my little story above? About the poor, beleaguered rider who had struggled in the minor leagues? And then when all the dopers were thrown out, he was able to compete?

Wouldn't that have indicated clean riding?

His transformation had NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL, on Froome's. If Froome's reinvention is the result of the péloton cleaning itself up, it begs three major questions.
1) Why was Froome's reinvention so sudden? Did the whole péloton suddenly go Cold Turkey in week 1 of the Vuelta that year?
2) Why have so few other riders shown the same kind of drastic improvements? Was every single rider - other than Froome - doping until that point? And then all stopped within a few weeks of each other?
3) Why hasn't everybody been jumping - as they should - to defend the honour of Juan José Cobo? He's never tested positive, never been named in a bust, had a medical reason for his poor performance in the years and months ahead of that Vuelta.
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  #13209  
Old 02-20-13, 20:51
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I would believe that Vaughters would have known if his Tour leader (true not necessarily at the beginning) was doping.
He may not have cared too much about doping after having corroborated that Wiggins blood profile was within the limits of the passport.
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  #13210  
Old 02-20-13, 20:52
bobbins bobbins is offline
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FFS, Sky aren't winning because they have a fancy bus, chef, special jerseys or because they warm down on a turbo trainer.

Sky aren't winning because of marginal gains because every team does similar things.

It concerns me that Sky and Dave B have a win at all costs mentality and having both the UCI and BC in their pockets must make short cuts tempting! Especially after their less than stellar first season.
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