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  #11  
Old 02-20-13, 19:19
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Originally Posted by hiero2 View Post
While I will still carbo-load for a long ride, for weight loss, I ran across a very interesting presentation of a study on you-tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo

In 25 words - Stanford presentation, study by PhD, longitudinal examination, comparing low carb/hi carb diets, and hi-protein, med fat, low carb worked best for weight loss. The PhD is a vegetarian - so the results surprised even him.

Be mindful, this is for weight loss, not energy maintenance for riding. Personally, I've always found it more than extremely difficult to lose weight while riding heavy miles - it has always been utterly impossible. I have to cut my miles way back or the hunger is just overbearing.

I also have to say this study surprised me - I'd always considered the whole hi-protein diet thing to be a fad. I really like the study approach, too. They ran the study like a REAL LIFE exercise, not an ideal, controlled, environment like so many diet proponents want. He examined what ppl could really do, on their own, when somebody wasn't dictating exactly what you ate. Most people can't afford a fat farm in real life, eh?

He also found a relation between insulin resistance and which diet worked well, AND how well the diet worked.
Welcome to the world of real people, Hiero. There is a wealth of evidence suggesting that low carb/high protein diets are the most effective for weight loss and maintaining weight loss. Read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes for a comprehensive review on the topic (and he addresses the so-called "fad" diet aspect of these diets), a summary of the science behind it (supported by references), and how we got where we are.

Like you, I also have trouble losing and maintaing weight when just riding. For this reason, as well as curiosity, I have been considering a high fat/low carb/moderate protein diet as described by Joe Volek in "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance".

I don't think there is one shoe size that fits everyone and, for people like you and me, it is perhaps worthwhile investigating other options to see if they do work or not. Not saying it is right or wrong, but certainly keeping an open mind.
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  #12  
Old 02-20-13, 21:19
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Originally Posted by Raul Ramaya View Post
Thanks to all who've responded. Apart from perhaps DurianRider I'm not sure my question was understood so let me try and clarify:

I am looking for opinions as to whether my new low body fat can be maintained through the season without sacrificing power (performance). If the answer is "depends on the person" - then my next question is how will I know (short of sacrificing this season to find out).

The velo thread linked in the Clinic thread (lovely indirection there), is filled with stories of people who found out the hard way that their level was not sustainable. I guess I'm hoping for early indications so I can adjust without ruining my season...

For context I've gone from 156lbs to 150lbs (6'1 tall). I've pretty much maintained 156-158 for the last 10 years I've been cycling.
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Originally Posted by elapid View Post
The balance between power output and body weight does depend on the person because at some stage you have to start losing protein when your body fat is too low. However, at 7%, I don't think you're near there yet. To test whether your weight loss is affecting your power output, you need to do standardized testing (20-60min TT over the same course is ideal) to compare your W/kg when you were at 156lb and now you're at 150lb. You don't have to ruin a season to make these calculations.
Elapid has a good point about standardized testing.

I thought I had answered your question - and I don't agree with elapid that 7% is maintainable over the long term - without chemical intervention.

I also think, from your description of events, that your body is already telling you what it thinks - recall your constant, driving hunger and weight gain. When I was in full training was the only time in my life I could eat all I wanted and not gain weight. I couldn't lose weight either, but I didn't put it on. Therefore, based on MY experience, if you are hungry and you are doing significant endurance workouts, your body is sending a strong message. The fact that you have maintained a constant weight for 10 years also tells us your body had found a comfort level.

Btw, if I am not in full workout mode, when I eat until I am not hungry, my weight goes up until I am clinically obese before my body says "enough".

Spend an hour and listen to this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo. This is a PROFESSIONAL diet researcher talking about REAL research and real results. He covers a lot of ground - and some of it may apply to you. We do NOT all fall in one category when it comes to weight. He covers some very interesting results, and some factors that impact those results - most of which is not "common sense". He is also pretty open about what is not known. But what he does cover may give you clues on how to manage your hunger through diet, if that is indeed what you need. I'll also tell you up front that his findings are at odds with the advice of durianrider, even though the researcher is a vegetarian himself.
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  #13  
Old 02-20-13, 21:26
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Originally Posted by elapid View Post
Welcome to the world of real people, Hiero. There is a wealth of evidence suggesting that low carb/high protein diets are the most effective for weight loss and maintaining weight loss. . . .
I don't think there is one shoe size that fits everyone and, for people like you and me, it is perhaps worthwhile investigating other options to see if they do work or not. Not saying it is right or wrong, but certainly keeping an open mind.
Thanks! I don't know about a "wealth", but that Stanford researcher I posted the link to gave that talk in 2008, and he said research in the area had been absolutely booming - which would support what you just said.

For sure one size does not fit all. Based on what some of these current researchers are saying, though, I think we can probably be comfortably lumped in 4 or so groups. But that is a lot more definition then what I grew up with, no question!
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  #14  
Old 02-20-13, 22:01
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One other note about weight loss and hunger for you Raul;

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Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
IME LSD = more hunger binges for me while HIIT leaves me feeling energized and empowered and I have less desire to eat. YMMV.
LSD = long steady distance
HIIT = hi-intensity interval training

I find exactly the same results for myself. This may have something to do with your hunger. This is like the difference in weight training and endurance work. Lo reps, heavy weight gives more hunger curbing. Endurance work sufficient to empty the liver of glycogen stores (if I'm remembering all the terms correctly) leads to greater hunger.

I'd forgotten about this until I just ran across Coach's post - but it may be pertinent.
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Old 02-21-13, 18:01
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StyrbjornSterki StyrbjornSterki is offline
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From Tyler Hamilton's "The Secret Race:"

"Michele [Ferrari] was obsessed about weight—and I mean totally obsessed. He talked about weight more than he talked about wattage, more than he talked about hematocrit, which could be easily boosted with a little Edgar. The reason: losing weight was the hardest but most efficient way to increase the crucial watts per kilogram number, and thus to do well in the Tour."

EDIT:
Rob Kish won the Race Across America (RAAM) fueling only on Häagen-Dazs. He said solid foods were too rough on the digestion, and fats are a more concentrated fuel than carbs.

Last edited by StyrbjornSterki; 02-21-13 at 18:08.
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  #16  
Old 02-22-13, 01:48
Raul Ramaya Raul Ramaya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiero2 View Post
One other note about weight loss and hunger for you Raul;



LSD = long steady distance
HIIT = hi-intensity interval training

I find exactly the same results for myself. This may have something to do with your hunger. This is like the difference in weight training and endurance work. Lo reps, heavy weight gives more hunger curbing. Endurance work sufficient to empty the liver of glycogen stores (if I'm remembering all the terms correctly) leads to greater hunger.

I'd forgotten about this until I just ran across Coach's post - but it may be pertinent.
Thanks for your insight. The more I think about it, the more I think I am not at a sustainable weight. I have already started to let it rise and I'll cap it at 155 - same as previous years.

I don't think my diet needs any modification. For a number of years I've been following a routine loosely matching the "Paleo for Athletes" concept: low glycemic diet except immediately following very intense workouts. Lots of dried fruits and nuts to cut down on hunger cravings. This seems to work well for me...
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  #17  
Old 02-22-13, 01:52
Raul Ramaya Raul Ramaya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elapid View Post
The balance between power output and body weight does depend on the person because at some stage you have to start losing protein when your body fat is too low. However, at 7%, I don't think you're near there yet. To test whether your weight loss is affecting your power output, you need to do standardized testing (20-60min TT over the same course is ideal) to compare your W/kg when you were at 156lb and now you're at 150lb. You don't have to ruin a season to make these calculations.
Good point with the TT test. Sadly I am still stuck indoors and don't have a baseline established on my trainer (from previous years).
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  #18  
Old 02-22-13, 01:55
Raul Ramaya Raul Ramaya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StyrbjornSterki View Post
From Tyler Hamilton's "The Secret Race:"

"Michele [Ferrari] was obsessed about weight—and I mean totally obsessed. He talked about weight more than he talked about wattage, more than he talked about hematocrit, which could be easily boosted with a little Edgar. The reason: losing weight was the hardest but most efficient way to increase the crucial watts per kilogram number, and thus to do well in the Tour."

EDIT:
Rob Kish won the Race Across America (RAAM) fueling only on Häagen-Dazs. He said solid foods were too rough on the digestion, and fats are a more concentrated fuel than carbs.
lol. Yes I am familiar with that quote. I think the context, however, has everything to do with "Edgar". i.e. the only reason he _could_ focus solely on weight is because the "Edgar" allowed him to do so (by lowering the sustainable threshold beyond what was normally achievable). But that's a topic for a different forum :-)
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  #19  
Old 02-24-13, 15:18
perpetuum mobile perpetuum mobile is offline
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Originally Posted by hiero2 View Post
Btw, if I am not in full workout mode, when I eat until I am not hungry, my weight goes up until I am clinically obese before my body says "enough"
It is interesting why so many people have their internal "satiety/hunger switch" broken. Why it does not work properly? Is it possible to fix it? I think that this is one of the main reasons for obesity in general.

Under normal circumstances no one should control their portion sizes and count calories - the "satiety/hunger switch" should regulate food intake according to the needs of the body.

Athletes preparing for competition is a different story. There is nothing healthy about being 6 or 7% bodyfat so your body will definitely send you signals to get back in the healthy range probably somewhere above 10%.
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  #20  
Old 02-24-13, 16:55
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Master50 Master50 is offline
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Nutrition for a pro road racer is a lot different than for an XC racer or a Cat 1 National level rider. Nutritional requirements for stage racers is different than for 1 day races.
Fat and protein requirements for stage racers are different than for single day races at the pro level.
A stage race like the tour might require 6000 calories a day. Just do the math. In simple sugars and carbs I think it is impossible to eat enough food to meet these caloric needs Cream cheese and ham sandwiches are common in the mussettes of pro riders. Yes most of the riders racing needs are sugars but recovery needs calories, fat and protein.
As for us individually? I made my greatest fat loss on low carb/ high protein diets. Now that I have reached my target weight my diet is more balanced and total calories is more important. You need all forms of nutrients including fats to be healthy. I also don't think I could ever 6 pack since that is the first place fat is stored on me. A real good genetic indicator I need to always watch my fat levels.
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