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  #1161  
Old 02-24-13, 00:45
JayKosta JayKosta is offline
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Regard this quote from Jobson's
'Gross efficiency and cycling performance: a brief review'

"Together, the experimental evidence suggests that the acquisition of new pedalling techniques does not result in significant increases in gross efficiency in the short to medium term. However, more research is needed to thoroughly address long-term adaptations to changes in pedalling technique with respect to cycling efficiency"

The wording is ackward, but I think that 'in the short to medium term' refers to the duration of learning and adapting to the 'new pedalling techniques'. So, it is questionable whether there really was meaningful 'acquisition of new pedalling techniques' and whether the testers' physiology had adapted to the new techniques.

I think it is also worth remembering (if I understand correctly) that with uncoupled cranks it is NOT necessary to apply a particularly large amount of 'positive rotational force' to prevent 'uncoupling' - the 'uncoupling' only occurs if one crank 'falls behind' the other.

This is important because it might be that experienced, well trained, competitive cyclist already apply force in that manner, or can easily adapt to it without having to change their technique or force-application by any significant amount.

My guess is that uncoupled crank training would be most useful for cyclists who regularly experience uncoupling while pedaling, and for experienced cyclists when the duration or intensity of a session causes uncoupling to occur.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Last edited by JayKosta; 02-24-13 at 00:48.
  #1162  
Old 02-24-13, 01:03
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post
My guess is that uncoupled crank training would be most useful for cyclists who regularly experience uncoupling while pedaling, and for experienced cyclists when the duration or intensity of a session causes uncoupling to occur.
My guess is you are correct. :-) Of course, the duration and intensity of the training must be enough to overcome and correct these deficiencies. That is where the argument is, me thinks.
  #1163  
Old 02-24-13, 16:47
JayKosta JayKosta is offline
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By the way...

I am not a 'true believer' in PowerCranks - I've never tried them, and don't personally know anyone who has.

I DO believe in the value of 'keep your feet moving' to avoid 'negative torque', and perhaps to give some additional 'positive torque' - as long as the effort of producing the additional torque does increase desired performance.

For cyclists who have difficulty 'keeping their feet moving', uncoupled cranks make it obvious and can assist in changing pedaling technique to avoid the uncoupling.

And YES, there are many other factors that are more important to performance than pedaling technique, but correcting a poor pedaling technique can improve performance.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Last edited by JayKosta; 02-24-13 at 16:55.
  #1164  
Old 02-24-13, 17:39
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And YES, there are many other factors that are more important to performance than pedaling technique, but correcting a poor pedaling technique can improve performance.
Can you describe poor pedalling technique? Or give some examples?
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
  #1165  
Old 02-24-13, 18:02
JayKosta JayKosta is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
Can you describe poor pedalling technique? Or give some examples?
============================

If I tried uncoupling cranks and found that they did 'uncouple' when I attempted to pedal in a TT-style, then I would try to change my technique to avoid the uncoupling.

It would be interesting to test elite competitors to determine whether their style results in frequent uncoupling. If uncoupling was rare or infrequent then perhaps learning that style would benefit those who aspire to better performance.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
  #1166  
Old 02-24-13, 18:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post
If I tried uncoupling cranks and found that they did 'uncouple' when I attempted to pedal in a TT-style, then I would try to change my technique to avoid the uncoupling.

It would be interesting to test elite competitors to determine whether their style results in frequent uncoupling. If uncoupling was rare or infrequent then perhaps learning that style would benefit those who aspire to better performance.
But we don't race with uncoupled cranks. What pedalling errors are you seeing with coupled cranks that need to be corrected?
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  #1167  
Old 02-24-13, 19:45
FrankDay FrankDay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
But we don't race with uncoupled cranks. What pedalling errors are you seeing with coupled cranks that need to be corrected?
Fergie, of course, unless you are looking for errors (as you don't) you cannot see them. You cannot see what you don't look for. Even if you are looking they are hard to find because the feet seem to move in a relatively smooth circle on coupled cranks regardless of the form. That is the major benefit of uncoupled cranks, to allow the user to see some of these technique errors and to help the rider to correct them whether they choose to race on uncoupled cranks (some do) or on coupled cranks (as most choose). When the ability to actually measure pedal forces becomes widely available then I predict it will soon become obvious that technique matters and the ability to know more about technique than even uncoupled cranks tells you will allow further improvements, I predict. We will see.
  #1168  
Old 02-24-13, 20:44
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Fergie, of course, unless you are looking for errors (as you don't) you cannot see them. You cannot see what you don't look for.
Well as a Coach I do prefer to look for ways to improve. But most errors stand out like dogs balls. Was videoing my riders doing gate starts last night and comparing them with standing starts from the Elite riders in the world.

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Even if you are looking they are hard to find because the feet seem to move in a relatively smooth circle on coupled cranks regardless of the form.
That is where I look at the well performed studies on pedalling technique and realise it looks smooth because it is.

Quote:
That is the major benefit of uncoupled cranks, to allow the user to see some of these technique errors and to help the rider to correct them whether they choose to race on uncoupled cranks (some do) or on coupled cranks (as most choose).
What errors? Sounds like uncoupled cranks are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

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When the ability to actually measure pedal forces becomes widely available then I predict it will soon become obvious that technique matters and the ability to know more about technique than even uncoupled cranks tells you will allow further improvements, I predict. We will see.
This technology has been available for years and has been well researched.
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
  #1169  
Old 02-25-13, 00:27
JayKosta JayKosta is offline
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A 'easy test' tool might be careful listening to tire noise when riding rollers, or on a trainer.

If the tire noise is a steady constant sound then the power is probably being applied in a fairly constant amount around the full crank rotation.

If the noise 'pulses' in sync with crank rotation, then the power is probably also being applied in pulses - which means periods of strong & less power.

CoachFergie - have you noticed this type of noise differences with your riders? Is there a noise difference between your best riders and others?
Do you think the noise that I mention is useful as any type of indicator?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
  #1170  
Old 02-25-13, 00:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKosta View Post
A 'easy test' tool might be careful listening to tire noise when riding rollers, or on a trainer.

If the tire noise is a steady constant sound then the power is probably being applied in a fairly constant amount around the full crank rotation.

If the noise 'pulses' in sync with crank rotation, then the power is probably also being applied in pulses - which means periods of strong & less power.

CoachFergie - have you noticed this type of noise differences with your riders? Is there a noise difference between your best riders and others?
Do you think the noise that I mention is useful as any type of indicator?
With a wind trainer it may be hard to tell whether it is how a rider pedals or if it is to do with the tyre - roller interface.

However it was something that is very clear using a BT-ATS ergometer. I was doing a set up and noticed the fan noise increased as the rider pedalled on the left side. I asked if the rider had any injuries and he said he had previously torn his right Achilles.

Not so much on the LeMond Revolution which has a smaller (although noisier) fan.

As a coach I'm not so concerned about the noise the trainer makes more the power the rider can generate compared to the power they will need (specifically power to weight or power to frontal area) to contribute to the psychological, technical and tactical matters that make up a cycling performance.
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Power Meters like Powercranks don't improve performance one bit. But at least with a Power Meter you can see yourself not improving because of it
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