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  #141  
Old 04-22-13, 19:14
JV1973 JV1973 is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
This takes me back to the thread about Talansky from back at the Vuelta when his comments after the race were being discussed. It's a difficult balancing act because publishing blood profiles etc are one of very few things a team can do to show that it is clean, as after all "show not tell" is a major point towards credibility, however as I said then, if I was a pro cyclist, knowing what I've seen happen to every profile released thus far, there would be no way, no way on earth that I'd bother publishing mine, clean or otherwise. Most people have made their mind up and confirmation bias reigns supreme in a place like this. Those that want to believe there is doping will look for the slightest fluctuation to pounce upon (or, if none exist, point out that a profile that is TOO consistent is also highly suspicious as one would expect differences in conditions and conditioning to yield some differences in results)... while those that want to believe there is none would seek to find justifications for any anomaly, even if things look pretty grim even to the untrained eye (take Lance's 2009 Tour levels, where if I remember correctly the hct% would decrease then jump back up after the rest days, which is something noticeable to anybody with a sense for pattern recognition even if they can't explain or don't want to use doping as an explanation). I wouldn't post my biopassport, so I don't blame you for deciding against doing it in future.

But then, I don't feel that I, as a fan, owe the cyclists belief either. I don't feel indebted to the riders out there on that front. I will choose whether or not I believe them. Dan Martin on Sunday, I am, until further notice, happy to believe. A guy who has accumulated a very good history of placements in the hilly Classics and who is still getting stronger (still pretty young but heading towards the classic 'peak years') takes advantage of being in the right move in a somewhat conservatively raced edition where he and his teammate had the advantage of numbers in the closing stages? Sounds about as believable as any hilly Classic triumph can get. I see no reason to suspect Dan Martin, either yesterday or otherwise, and he's certainly never had any performance that I've baulked at on his way to the top.

And sure, lots of people here are calling your guys into question, but if we take you on your word and Garmin is a 100% clean team as it purports to be, then the Clinic is, albeit not in the nicest of fashions, paying you one hell of a compliment.
fair enough.
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  #142  
Old 04-22-13, 19:15
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Pentacycle Pentacycle is offline
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Originally Posted by Schwartzchov View Post
Well done to Dan and Garmin for delivering victory at Liege. And of course a clean victory. Its incredible what a hard work ethic, total dedication, and endless hours of hard training will bring. (20,000 odd miles of training per year) And of course talent. Superb stuff.
You must be having a right old laugh at the conspiracy theorists in the Clinic who sniff "it has to be drugs" whenever a great rider such as Dan delivers a fine victory.....
It's all down to talent and tactics. After all, Valverde, Purito, Scarponi and Betancur have done roughly the same as Martin to prepare for this race, they were great as well. Every rider, even a domestique, has a total dedication towards such season goals. I hope you're not suggesting Dan's victory was achieved by training more and harder than others?
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  #143  
Old 04-22-13, 19:16
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The Hitch The Hitch is offline
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And there we have it straight from the horse's mouth (if you will pardon the expression JV).

The one team who actually did release profiles have got fed up with the armchair analysts.

Not that I blame you one bit.
Wasnt it JV who said that theres only 12 people in the clinic (or something to that effect) and it really doesnt matter what anyone says here.
Of those 12, theres a couple of "armchair analysts". Is that really such a big deal in the wider context.

Thats an audience of thousands missing out for fear that a handful of people will disagree.

Anyway,if you think something is the right thing to do then you should do it. A bit of a cop out to wait for the first sign of critisism (which will always happen because the world is a big place) and use that as an excuse to take your ball and go home. (not saying thats neccesarily whats happening here).

The whole point of making a stand and doing the right thing is that its not always going to be easy. If it was, everyone would do it.

In the long run you might even get praised for sticking to your guns when all men doubted you.

And if not, well, **** it, thats not why you do it.
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If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
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  #144  
Old 04-22-13, 19:21
Schwartzchov Schwartzchov is offline
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Originally Posted by Pentacycle View Post
. After all, I hope you're not suggesting Dan's victory was achieved by training more and harder than others?
Of course not. I am not suggesting anything of the sort....
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  #145  
Old 04-22-13, 19:35
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Catwhoorg Catwhoorg is offline
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Hitch,

its not just the folks here.
Its trivial for a so called 'journalist' who wants to make a story to some data, and shop around until they find a so called "scientist" in the field who will say what they want usually for an appropriate fee.

They do it with all sorts of things, not just blood profiles.

Us back and forthing is relatively harmless. Someone in the mainstream media would be much less so.
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  #146  
Old 04-22-13, 19:38
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Zam_Olyas Zam_Olyas is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
fair enough.
How are his allergies situation?
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  #147  
Old 04-22-13, 19:43
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Roude Leiw Roude Leiw is offline
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Originally Posted by RownhamHill View Post
The Clinic's approach to investigative justice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3jt5ibfRzw
Brilliant !!!!
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  #148  
Old 04-22-13, 19:58
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DirtyWorks DirtyWorks is offline
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Originally Posted by JV1973 View Post
Not only was Ryder's blood data not flagged, it was put in the "negligible risk" category by the AMPU, which analyzes the data and came up with the "risk profiles" pre 2010 TdF, in which Ryder also measured low risk, with an Hb of 16 and retics in the +1 category.
No disrespect to you or this claim, or Ryder, but how are we to know your claim is true?

Armstrong was a low(ish) risk according to the often referenced TdF list and THAT guy was red-hot positive. We were supposed to believe Tyler had an ephemeral twin. We know there were positives languishing in the APMU too. The well has been poisoned.

Unfortunately, you learned the hard way, if you release something super-technical like blood profiles, you better back it up with plenty of explanation. And again, the extraordinary lies over decades don't help your honest effort at some transparency.
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  #149  
Old 04-22-13, 20:01
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Rip:30 Rip:30 is offline
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Ryder started blood doping with Roland Green on the mtnbike circuit, which was witnessed by Subaru-Gary Fisher staffers. Ya sure he cleaned up and then developed into a GT winner after switching to clean operations like Rabo, Phonak and Disco.

The question is not if, but how and how much.

Also: What is up with Dan Martin's head??? That's an interesting genotype for sure.
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Last edited by Rip:30; 04-22-13 at 20:08.
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  #150  
Old 04-22-13, 20:07
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Originally Posted by DirtyWorks View Post
No disrespect to you or this claim, or Ryder, but how are we to know your claim is true?

Armstrong was a low(ish) risk according to the often referenced TdF list and THAT guy was red-hot positive. We were supposed to believe Tyler had an ephemeral twin. We know there were positives languishing in the APMU too. The well has been poisoned.

Unfortunately, you learned the hard way, if you release something super-technical like blood profiles, you better back it up with plenty of explanation. And again, the extraordinary lies over decades don't help your honest effort at some transparency.
The APMU is BS, it's a non-peer reviewed statistical black box. If JV et al. really wanted to be "transparent" they would release all the data and have it analysed and published in actual scientific journals, which it's not.
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