God and Religion - Page 37 - CyclingNews Forum

Go Back   CyclingNews Forum > Cafe > General

General Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

View Poll Results: Do you believe in God?
Yes, I believe in Johnny Hoogerland. 37 14.92%
Yes, I believe in a supernatural, personal being. 37 14.92%
I believe in a life force or spirit, but not in a personal being. 25 10.08%
I don't know. I'm an agnostic. 28 11.29%
No, I'm an atheist in that, while I can't assure there is no God, I believe there is none. 57 22.98%
No, I'm an atheist in that I assure there is no God. 64 25.81%
Voters: 248. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #361  
Old 03-31-12, 13:54
Pazuzu Pazuzu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
Man is a coward, and simply can not accept his own mortality.
That's exactly right. Because of the fear of death all sorts of silly notions are concocted of there being a afterlife and an immortal soul. Fact is, not only is there no immortal soul, there's no soul. Only neurological (that is to say physical) processes, occuring in the brain, that create the illusion of there being a continuous 'self'. When in actuallity we're just organisms reacting to our environment.
Reply With Quote
  #362  
Old 03-31-12, 14:37
rhubroma's Avatar
rhubroma rhubroma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
That's exactly right. Because of the fear of death all sorts of silly notions are concocted of there being a afterlife and an immortal soul. Fact is, not only is there no immortal soul, there's no soul. Only neurological (that is to say physical) processes, occuring in the brain, that create the illusion of there being a continuous 'self'. When in actuallity we're just organisms reacting to our environment.
Memory loss among the elderly is truly tragic, for this reason, while it demonstrates that those neurological processes upon which the continuous "self" was constructed, can also be just as easily deleted as if the individual never existed.

This is proof to me that everything is but a dream, out of which we can "wake-up" into the meaninglessness of a void, with no other "design" but the continuous repetition of the natural cycle: Start-stop -Start over-stop- Start-over. Until even this cycle reaches its existential limit. Stop.

But then again the ancient Greeks already perceived this, for which Flaubert's poetical observations about the 'melancholy of the antique world', is worth repeating here:

The melancholy of the antique world seems to me more profound than that of the moderns, all of whom more or less imply that beyond the great void lies immortality. But for the ancients that "black hole" is infinity itself; their dreams loom and vanish against a background of immutable ebony. No crying out, no convulsions - nothing but the fixity of a pensive gaze. Just when gods had ceased to be and the Christ had not yet come, there was a time between Cicero and Marcus Aurelius, when man stood alone. Nowhere else do I find that particular grandeur.

In fact just as that 'grandeur' began to wane, so too did the civilization; and with it the Western world sunk into the dark ages. Though with a great recompense, or so it was believed, salvation: so long as one attentively followed all the precepts of the religious doctrine; which, however, found little need to explain how a God that is all-loving and omnipotent would have allowed civilization made up of a humanity He created for thousands of years to consign itself to the void, which came with each individual's own extinction - for innumerable generations! - before sending His Messiah to save it?

For a deity who acts thusly can neither be loving nor omnipotent, but constrained to the context of history, which, as the ancient Greeks have shown us, is only a human fabrication to give meaning to the continuous cycles of nature. Hence, taken in the historical sense and out of the context of natural forces (which is really all the pagan gods were, personifications of natural forces), God too is a human construct as is salvation, for the reason of man essentially being a coward I set down before.

Last edited by rhubroma; 03-31-12 at 18:38.
Reply With Quote
  #363  
Old 03-31-12, 15:21
Maaaaaaaarten's Avatar
Maaaaaaaarten Maaaaaaaarten is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,733
Default

Lol, option 1 and 2 in the poll are the same.

Johnny Hoogerland is a supernatural, personal being.

Weird poll
Reply With Quote
  #364  
Old 03-31-12, 18:41
Pazuzu Pazuzu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 230
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
Memory loss among the elderly is truly tragic, for this reason, while it demonstrates that those neurological processes upon which the continuous "self" was constructed, can also be just as easily deleted as if the individual never existed.
Very tragic indeed. And a byproduct of modern medicine which has been so successful extending human lifespans through medical interventions and pharmaceuticals. The downside is this leads to situations where people are kept alive in conditions we'd never allow our pets to suffer through. Not to mention the huge amounts of money spent on end of life medical care. Probably has to do with our fear of death.
Reply With Quote
  #365  
Old 03-31-12, 19:01
rhubroma's Avatar
rhubroma rhubroma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
Very tragic indeed. And a byproduct of modern medicine which has been so successful extending human lifespans through medical interventions and pharmaceuticals. The downside is this leads to situations where people are kept alive in conditions we'd never allow our pets to suffer through. Not to mention the huge amounts of money spent on end of life medical care. Probably has to do with our fear of death.
Well, unfortunately, it also has to do with the religious doctrine getting in the way, when plugs aren't pulled in the absence of all hope (and reason). Life at all costs. Curious defense from a people who should be just beckoning to make an exit, but who then force others to hang around, even when their existence has become intollerable, precisely because non-existant. Thus shouldn't it be for believers that to maintain a "life" under forced compliance, only demonstrates an intollerable act of cruelty without pitty, to say nothing about resisting the will of the divinity's call to bring one unto Himself? To in effect hold such a person hostage from God.

The paradoxical nature of such contradictions, however, seems to escape them.

Last edited by rhubroma; 03-31-12 at 19:05.
Reply With Quote
  #366  
Old 03-31-12, 21:45
Pazuzu Pazuzu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
Well, unfortunately, it also has to do with the religious doctrine getting in the way, when plugs aren't pulled in the absence of all hope (and reason). Life at all costs. Curious defense from a people who should be just beckoning to make an exit, but who then force others to hang around, even when their existence has become intollerable, precisely because non-existant. Thus shouldn't it be for believers that to maintain a "life" under forced compliance, only demonstrates an intollerable act of cruelty without pitty, to say nothing about resisting the will of the divinity's call to bring one unto Himself? To in effect hold such a person hostage from God.

The paradoxical nature of such contradictions, however, seems to escape them.
I must say that I admire Christian Scientists who refuse medical treatment. I don't agree with that choice in many instances, but I respect their sincerity and that they are willing to live (and die) by their convictions when it seems most other religious sects are a tangle of contradictions and self-serving hypocrisy.
Reply With Quote
  #367  
Old 03-31-12, 22:57
Polish Polish is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
Memory loss among the elderly is truly tragic, for this reason, while it demonstrates that those neurological processes upon which the continuous "self" was constructed, can also be just as easily deleted as if the individual never existed.
.
I would argue that Memory and Spirit/Soul are not the same.

And it is a fact that many pro level mystic/meditation dudes can reach HIGHER levers of consciousness only AFTER clearing their mind of distractions. Impossible to reach higher levels of conciousness while at the same time trying to remember that name on the tip of your tongue.

But I'm not saying that religion is a distraction lol.
In fact studies have shown that religiosity can be mentally healthy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20088813/

Quote:
higher levels of religiosity in Alzheimer's dementia seem to correlate with a slower cognitive and behavioral decline, with a corresponding significant reduction of the caregiver's burden
Less grumpy and slower decline. Go figure.
Reply With Quote
  #368  
Old 04-01-12, 07:35
rhubroma's Avatar
rhubroma rhubroma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
I must say that I admire Christian Scientists who refuse medical treatment. I don't agree with that choice in many instances, but I respect their sincerity and that they are willing to live (and die) by their convictions when it seems most other religious sects are a tangle of contradictions and self-serving hypocrisy.
Christianity and science have long been in conflict with each other, both perceiving irreconcilable differences with the other's doctrine. Whereas the total liberty of one, means placing limitations upon that of the other. Especially in these times when religion expects to provide the ethical boundaries for science, while science the parameters of a universal knowledge which religion cannot violate.

The current problems and issues that Western governments face in trying to satisfy and respect the missions of the two, demonstrates the inherent paradoxical nature of having a free and independent Church inside a free and independent State.

As per issues of medical treatment: the medic who is driven by faith in his controversial decisions refuses to administer treatments based upon an "objection of consciousness" that the liberty of religion has legally endowed him with, irrespective of the patient, who in fact desires such treatment, because not governed by the same worldview and since legally entitled to it by the state (or, conversely, when on the same religious grounds, a medic imposes by force the continued application of a "therapy," even when the therapeutic capacity has been exhausted - for instance when being indefinitely hooked-up to a machine while in a state of irreversible, vegetal coma). Hence, in this case, and there have been unfortunately many examples, the one's liberty cancels that of the other, even when he or she is legally entitled to it. Consequently here is a case where religious belief imposes its will within the secular arena. To complicate things still further we then have hospitals (and schools for that matter) financed by the religious institutions.

Last edited by rhubroma; 04-01-12 at 21:42.
Reply With Quote
  #369  
Old 04-01-12, 19:40
Maaaaaaaarten's Avatar
Maaaaaaaarten Maaaaaaaarten is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,733
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
Consequently here is a case were religious belief imposes its will within the secular arena. To complicate things still further we then have hospitals (and schools for that matter) financed by the religious institutions.
It works both ways though. Either the doctor's freedom of religion is hindered, or the patient's freedom to have or not have a certain medical treatment is hindered.
Reply With Quote
  #370  
Old 04-01-12, 20:36
rhubroma's Avatar
rhubroma rhubroma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maaaaaaaarten View Post
It works both ways though. Either the doctor's freedom of religion is hindered, or the patient's freedom to have or not have a certain medical treatment is hindered.
That was precisely my point. Which would you have it?

Last edited by rhubroma; 04-01-12 at 20:39.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.