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Old 10-13-11, 02:32
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Originally Posted by FrankDay View Post
You can do whatever you think is best for you and your athletes. However, I am glad to see that you don't deny that changing crank length is a potential way that athletes might use to optimize their position/power potential, which is part of what I said when I started this thread.
Where did optimization and power potential come into my agreeing with you that putting shorter cranks could potentially improve aerodynamics?

You have supplied no evidence of that.

My riders and people who consult for position advice don't settle for what I think. I have to provide hard data.
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  #692  
Old 10-13-11, 02:36
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Originally Posted by Martin318is View Post
I assume you wrote that because it IS relevant? Its not as relevant as in a hilly race obviously but there isn't really a coincidence that larger riders perform better on flat or slightly rolling terrain than small climbers.

Being heavier has costs in cross section but benefits in things like inertia... just sayin
Isn't as relevant. In a small study I have done collecting power meter data from flat races power to weight was not as relevant to performance or outcome as absolute power or allometric scaled power.
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  #693  
Old 10-13-11, 02:38
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Originally Posted by Oldman View Post
And most of us have agreed. You continue to argue that your product provides both benefits when most others say they're not necessary and reduced crank lengths are not the panacea; particularly expensive ones.

History and performance says you are not correct.
What on earth does this thread have to do with my product other than we offer the option for the user to experiment with this while also learning how to pedal in the PC fashion (which I think is a separate benefit)? The potential benefits of shorter cranks should accrue to anyone, whether they are a PC'er or not. And, this experiment doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg - C. Ogden won IM Western Australia on 145mm cranks he picked up off the internet for $22. It might be that a PC'er might be able to go shorter than a non-PC'er but that is speculation on my part.
  #694  
Old 10-13-11, 02:46
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What on earth does this thread have to do with my product
Oldman didn't say anything about independent cranks. You do market a crank that has adjustable lengths which just also happens to offer independent moving crank arm option.
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  #695  
Old 10-13-11, 02:50
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I find it amusing that this chap will drop a grand to experiment with independent cranks but clearly hasn't spent 5 mins on a windtrainer beside a mirror and thought: "s**t I'm not all that aero".
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  #696  
Old 10-13-11, 02:55
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Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
Isn't as relevant. In a small study I have done collecting power meter data from flat races power to weight was not as relevant to performance or outcome as absolute power or allometric scaled power.
Yep I assumed that was what you meant. I'm just trying to pull things back from the language of absolutes. I thought it would be good to highlight that this was one where you yourself were probably not trying to make an absolute statement while at the same time opening a potential area for attack from others by accident.

I think that if everyone takes a step back and reads over their upcoming posts thinking about that before submitting then there is a likelihood that a lot of the heated disagreement would be replaced by at least gruding acceptance - in both directions.
  #697  
Old 10-13-11, 02:58
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Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
I find it amusing that this chap will drop a grand to experiment with independent cranks but clearly hasn't spent 5 mins on a windtrainer beside a mirror and thought: "s**t I'm not all that aero".
you could say the same about the frame, wheels, etc. That said, I always find it difficult to make absolute pronouncements about the riding position of someone from a single photo.

Last year people were attacking Carlos Sastre for his stem length, etc on the basis of 3 photos that showed him climbing with his hands an inch or so behind his brakehoods.

Are there more photos of this rider or even better some video? He is showing a fair bit of strain in that image and I wonder whether he isn't being pulled into a less aero position by the effort...
  #698  
Old 10-13-11, 03:12
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Originally Posted by Martin318is View Post
you could say the same about the frame, wheels, etc. That said, I always find it difficult to make absolute pronouncements about the riding position of someone from a single photo.
True.

I have been asked to test a top line road bike as used by a current world road race champion as they claim it is X amount more aero than other bikes. Not sure what me riding one bike with a power meter is going to tell me unless I compare it to all the bikes out there.

Manufacturers constantly make these claims. A set of wheels will take 60sec off your 40km TT but the comparison is with a set of box section clinchers. One of my riders asked what the benefit would be in buying a Campag Ghibli Disc over his Campag Bora wheels. I worked out for 16km a maximum benefit of 1.67 seconds. He still spent the $4000 on the wheel.

At least for things like wheels or tyres there are independent power or wind tunnel tests that can steer you in the right direction.

Quote:
Are there more photos of this rider or even better some video? He is showing a fair bit of strain in that image and I wonder whether he isn't being pulled into a less aero position by the effort...
Right, it is only one shot and I don't perform bike set ups from photos or even videos unless it's one of my International clients and even then I would prefer they find someone suitable locally. But I think some flexibility tests and 10mins work with an allen key would be the place to start rather than changing cranks, whacking the seat back and up, shortening the stem and lifting it up.
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  #699  
Old 10-13-11, 03:15
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Originally Posted by CoachFergie View Post
Where did optimization and power potential come into my agreeing with you that putting shorter cranks could potentially improve aerodynamics?
In post 702 you admitted that shorter cranks have the potential to improve aerodynamics and now, are you denying that they have the potential to help optimize the total power/aerodynamics potential of the rider?
  #700  
Old 10-13-11, 03:17
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Originally Posted by Martin318is View Post
Yep I assumed that was what you meant. I'm just trying to pull things back from the language of absolutes. I thought it would be good to highlight that this was one where you yourself were probably not trying to make an absolute statement while at the same time opening a potential area for attack from others by accident.
Just doing a write up for a wee study I have done and calculating p values, confidence intervals and effect sizes I am understand the need to avoid absolutes.
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"I couldn't have won today without my power meter" Said no rider ever!!!
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