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  #1901  
Old 12-10-12, 11:22
William H William H is offline
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If Wiggins had absolutely no team support, he'd probably have struggled, as anyone would.

If he'd had the same level of support as Nibali had, he'd still have won.

If he'd swapped teams with Nibali, then Froome + Nibali might well have have been able to take him down.
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  #1902  
Old 12-10-12, 11:22
del1962 del1962 is offline
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Originally Posted by cineteq View Post
Weak argument. Wiggins needed a team to get fresher to the end of the stages. All of the sudden you and airtream are dismissing the importance of having a team just because? If anything Nibali wouldn't have won because of the muscle pulled, but who's to say he would have had it if Wiggins had no team, i.e. no Froome.

PS: I suggest you watch Run Lola Run
I suggest you watch the Verbier 2009 and see who dragged Nibali's *** up the mountain.
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  #1903  
Old 12-10-12, 11:38
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cineteq cineteq is offline
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Originally Posted by del1962 View Post
I suggest you watch the Verbier 2009 and see who dragged Nibali's *** up the mountain.
It's irrelevant. We're talking 2012.

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Originally Posted by William H View Post
If he'd had the same level of support as Nibali had, he'd still have won.
It's debatable, but it would've been close. Remember Nibali was just +2.23 @ stage 16 before he got injured and lost time to Wiggins on stage 17. I'm sure Wiggo would have been behind Nibali by stage 16 had he got same team support as Los Squalo. The question is what would have been the difference between the two after the last ITT?
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The scientific explanation for Vincenzo Nibali's extraordinary descending ability is his large cojones, which lower his center of gravity, enabling him to corner with confidence on high speed descents
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  #1904  
Old 12-10-12, 11:43
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The Hitch The Hitch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cineteq View Post
Weak argument. Wiggins needed a team to get fresher to the end of the stages. All of the sudden you and airtream are dismissing the importance of having a team just because? If anything Nibali wouldn't have won because of the muscle pulled, but who's to say he would have had it if Wiggins had no team, i.e. no Froome.

PS: I suggest you watch Run Lola Run
You act as if the assertion proves itself.

Having asked me and airstream for a"backup" you continue to provide NO backup. You just say tautologise again and again and again, "you are wrong nibali would win".

No one is dismissing the importance of having a team, we are asking how nibali, whose great achievement was scraping the weakest vuelta ever by 30 seconds over mosquera and has a history.of cracking himself is suddenly going to fly away from wiggins for minutes.
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If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
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  #1905  
Old 12-10-12, 12:14
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cineteq cineteq is offline
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Originally Posted by The Hitch View Post
Having asked me and airstream for a"backup" you continue to provide NO backup. You just say tautologise again and again and again, "you are wrong nibali would win".
I've already provided my take, and you called it a 'wild theory'. Here it is again for your enjoyment.
Quote:
Nibali would have won since Froome wouldn't have been there, remember no team?, and Wiggins would have cracked for 3 reasons, he doesn't respond well to pace changes, he's not a good descender and his mind is so fragile. Thus his last ITT would have been subpar, unless he would've previously retired.
Moreover, I realigned my thoughts if Wiggo team support = Nibali's
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It's debatable, but it would've been close. Remember Nibali was just +2.23 @ stage 16 before he got injured and lost time to Wiggins on stage 17. I'm sure Wiggo would have been behind Nibali by stage 16 had he got same team support as Los Squalo. The question is what would have been the difference between the two after the last ITT?
On the other hand, you're stuck on the 6 min. difference as if that means anything. Had Wiggo got no team support or same level support as Nibali's the result would have been different. You don't seem to understand that each important stage would've had different outcome, and most likely Wiggins would've been behind Nibali by stage 18.

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Originally Posted by The Hitch View Post
we are asking how nibali, whose great achievement was scraping the weakest vuelta ever by 30 seconds over mosquera and has a history.of cracking himself is suddenly going to fly away from wiggins for minutes.
We can speculate all we want, but Giro 2013 is around the corner, and we'll see what happens.
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The scientific explanation for Vincenzo Nibali's extraordinary descending ability is his large cojones, which lower his center of gravity, enabling him to corner with confidence on high speed descents

Last edited by red_flanders; 12-10-12 at 12:39.
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  #1906  
Old 12-10-12, 12:22
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Parrulo Parrulo is offline
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with nibali's support wiggins would be by himself half way up the croix de fer instead of having 4 team mates with him. i fairly sure that would make a difference the moment evans attacked as instead of rogers wiggins would have to chase himself. he would also have to chase himself on richmound instead of using porte, he would also have to close the gap on la toussuire to a group of 4 guys working together all by himself instead of using froome and would be in the same situation on peyresourde when nibali attacked.

if all that didn't have any influence on the final outcome of the race i don't know what would have. maybe wiggins being sprayed with an hot italian expresso right after being kicked in chest by a kangoroo?
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  #1907  
Old 12-10-12, 12:39
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The Hitch The Hitch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cineteq View Post
I've already provided my take, and you called it a 'wild theory'. Here it is again for your enjoyment.


Moreover, I realigned my thoughts if Wiggo team support = Nibali's


On the other hand, you're stuck on the 6 min. difference as if that means anything. Had Wiggo got no team support or same level support as Nibali's the result would have been different. You don't seem to understand that each important stage would've had different outcome, and most likely Wiggins would've been behind Nibali by stage 18.



No that's just the theory your repeating. Where is the backup- examples of stages where nibali has shown the kind of form to overturn the advantage wiggins had in the tt . And your assertion that wiggins would have performed worse in the time trials. How do you know he wasn't tired for them? He was clearly on his limit on peyresguades and there was a sprint stage between that and the tt. The prologue.would.be unaffected and the first tt, there was a pdbf and a mountain stage before that but 1st week like all the other tts wiggo smashed this year. Would he really lose that much time?

Show us some backup that 6 minutes is a wrong figure.

Quote:
We can speculate all we want, but Giro 2013 is around the corner, and we'll see what happens

The 2012 tour was the one with the 100k of tt and with no.mtfs. We don't even know.if wiggins will care about the giro.


Quote:


We? Nope, that's your agenda. You are notorious for trying to hurt posters by attacking their fave riders, which is irrelevant to the discussion, when you have a lost battle. The fact that's irrelevant defeats your purpose, i.e. no one gets hurt.

Surprise.surprise cineteq takes a discussion where everyone is talking calmly about cycling and makes it personal with flaming and baiting.

Have i attacked you in this discussion?
no.

Then why are you trying to start another fire?
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The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013 (still undefeated). Currently 2nd all time cq rankings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pre 2009 wiggins
If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
journalist with integrity.

Last edited by The Hitch; 12-10-12 at 12:41.
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  #1908  
Old 12-10-12, 12:57
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The Hitch The Hitch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrulo View Post
with nibali's support wiggins would be by himself half way up the croix de fer instead of having 4 team mates with him. i fairly sure that would make a difference the moment evans attacked as instead of rogers wiggins would have to chase himself. he would also have to chase himself on richmound instead of using porte, he would also have to close the gap on la toussuire to a group of 4 guys working together all by himself instead of using froome and would be in the same situation on peyresourde when nibali attacked.

if all that didn't have any influence on the final outcome of the race i don't know what would have. maybe wiggins being sprayed with an hot italian expresso right after being kicked in chest by a kangoroo?
You can't just take the way the race played out and project that onto this imaginary race. If wiggins didn't have the postal train riders wouldn't be desperately attacking 60k out to disrupt the postal train.

But say it did happen.this idea that Evans nibali and jvdb would ride of holding hands into a tdf podium sunset is lovely and all but i don't believe in the fairy godmother.

If they tried it, like cadel up galibier he would have got his head together.gritted his teeth and done what has to be done to catch them.or.work.with others and limit his.losses. Not all of the othera were strong enough to.keep.going away from him in any way. Evans sure as he'll was not.
__________________
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013 (still undefeated). Currently 2nd all time cq rankings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pre 2009 wiggins
If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that.
journalist with integrity.
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  #1909  
Old 12-10-12, 13:17
movingtarget movingtarget is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrulo View Post
i actually thought he was already wearing those bandages on the stage where he cracked but you are right he only wore them the following day.

i am actually eager to see the wiggin vs nibali battle at next years giro. the route doesn't lack tough mountains unlike the tour and still has an early huge time trial where wiggins can gain minutes. and wiggins won't have the best climber in the race working for him there nor will nibali be alone after just a couple k's of climbing. so i think the battle for the win will be much closer then it was at the tour.
For that to happen, Nibali will have to improve his TT and apart from Rogers and Froome missing, Sky will still field a strong team of climbers. I just think if Nibali gains time in the mountains it will have to be big time or he will have to hope that Wiggins does not ride the TTs as well as he did in this year's Tour. Should be interesting and Ryder and Rodriguez have to be thrown into the mix as well. Should be a good contest.
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  #1910  
Old 12-10-12, 13:32
BlenJones2 BlenJones2 is offline
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For me the potential Wiggins V Rodriguez battle is more intersting than W v Nibali. Rodriguez will always take time out of him especially with time bonuses so it could come down to time bonuses vs TT
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