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  #2521  
Old 04-16-12, 17:35
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rhubroma rhubroma is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Dude, I'm not the one groaning about the 'present model'. You are looking for govt to be all things to all people. I know it's not possible.



Yep, economically speaking, you are a member of the flat earth society. The leader of the zero-sum game crowd. You decry folks that have wealth and at the same time pity those that don't. You will forever be tough to please.



Your boy Krugman disagrees with this;

"So it’s hard to avoid a sense of despair. Rather than admit that they’ve been wrong, European leaders seem determined to drive their economy — and their society — off a cliff. And the whole world will pay the price. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/op...cide.html?_r=1



Cool. Let's start with your wealth while allowing someone you disagree with politically (as well as nearly everything else) decide where your wealth "is most needed".
Apart from the fact that I don't consider myself a part of any "society," beyond the human one, your unwillingness to even consider, let alone address, certain issues is frightful. At the same time I have no wealth to spread around. It's all tied up in any case in the corporate world and finance.

The current crisis of capitalism is to be found here, and doesn't consist of Europe's debt or stagnation, but the Western banks limiting the large part of their investments to financial schemes, which don't make it back into the real economy and the legality of monetary speculation of the most sabotoging kind. This is what I meant about capital being given an intrinsic value it in fact does not have: though this is precisely how it is being considered by those at Wall Street and the international financial institutions. Secondly the corporate world and the banks are investing in second and third world markets to then metabolize the profits exclusively and distribute the dividends within a closed circuit they control and from which they draw all the benefits. This not only means a part of those profits aren't reinvested at home, but distributed among the shareholders; but worst of all treats the host market purely in predatory, exploitative and speculative terms. Hence the real problem with both the US and the world's economy is the greed and mendacity of this capitalism of "overlords." Statistically I don't know exactly what percentage of corporate activities controls a disproportionate markets share globally, but I'm certain it is quite small.

This is the situation to be addressed. These are the lobbies to be broken, but these are precisely the groups to which the ideology your side is so inextricably bound. That the democrats are, in reality, no better, is only a further means to see that the entire system is corrupted probably beyond repair.

PS. If I have to explain to you where wealth is "most needed," then you are not only mentally impared and deficient but meniacal.

Last edited by rhubroma; 04-16-12 at 18:08.
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  #2522  
Old 04-16-12, 18:12
Scott SoCal
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Originally Posted by aphronesis View Post
Right, so now that you've dropped your farcical MLK "everyone has a dream," moment of fatigue; which part of your wealth is your wealth?

Easy question Scott. Please do explain it to me.

The fundamental disagreement here is that you want to talk politics, but only "as the economics guy," problem is: most people here don't think that the economic is separable from the social or the political. In that regard, Krugman and Velocity might actually be the closest to you.

So in that sense it seems you really only want to talk about what a bummer it is lately to make a buck--or 300,000.

You've maintained in the past that politics are thoroughly corrupt and yet the economy is just "ailing" "weak" "in trouble." Please Scott, do enlighten everyone and explain how the "economy" (something like an 18th century garden I guess) can be extricated from the political and set back on its feet again? And while you're at it, please do it in such a way that the US economy is autonomous from all other world economies and therefore not debt financed.
Quote:
Right, so now that you've dropped your farcical MLK "everyone has a dream," moment of fatigue;
Not sure WTF you're on about there.

Quote:
which part of your wealth is your wealth?
Easy answer. That which is not taxed.

Quote:
The fundamental disagreement here is that you want to talk politics, but only "as the economics guy,"
Really? More positions assigned to me I suppose.

Quote:
problem is: most people here don't think that the economic is separable from the social or the political.
I would replace 'most' with 'all'.

Quote:
So in that sense it seems you really only want to talk about what a bummer it is lately to make a buck--or 300,000.


Quote:
You've maintained in the past that politics are thoroughly corrupt
Yes, I pretty sure it's something most will agree on.

Quote:
the economy is just "ailing" "weak" "in trouble."
I think there is a fair amount of evidence to suggest this to be so.

Quote:
Please Scott, do enlighten everyone and explain how the "economy" (something like an 18th century garden I guess) can be extricated from the political and set back on its feet again?
I would be interested to know how you came to think that I think this is even remotely possible.

Quote:
And while you're at it, please do it in such a way that the US economy is autonomous from all other world economies and therefore not debt financed
This is sort of a Ron Paul dream, no?

I do have a question for you... do you believe there to be a point where the US will have so much debt that no amount of economic growth would be enough to maintain the debt service as well as mandatory spending? If so, where would you guess the tipping point to be... $25 Trillion? $35 Trilion? Less?
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  #2523  
Old 04-16-12, 18:29
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Bala Verde Bala Verde is offline
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Stupid things politicians say, continued

Quote:
The risk associated with this behavior of the Secret Service is unbelievable," Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-Texas) told MSNBC. "Anybody who has watched a spy movie knows you go in with the girls, you plant the bugs, you compromise the agents. What were these guys thinking?"
Clip: http://thehill.com/video/house/22169...tution-scandal

It's like, em, justifying torture because it worked for jack Bauer.

I wonder if he ever said anything about that apocalypse-full-metal-jacket-platoon soldierish guy who killed 17 people, or that other medal of honor clan that took trophies after kills in Afghanistan, or those funny kids who peed on dead enemies and YouTubed it.

Looks like too many people are watching too many movies.
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  #2524  
Old 04-16-12, 18:36
Scott SoCal
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Originally Posted by rhubroma View Post
Apart from the fact that I don't consider myself a part of any "society," beyond the human one, your unwillingness to even consider, let alone address, certain issues is frightful. At the same time I have no wealth to spread around. It's all tied up in any case in the corporate world and finance.

The current crisis of capitalism is to be found here, and doesn't consist of Europe's debt or stagnation, but the Western banks limiting the large part of their investments to financial schemes, which don't make it back into the real economy and the legality of monetary speculation of the most sabotoging kind. This is what I meant about capital being given an intrinsic value it in fact does not have: though this is precisely how it is being considered by those at Wall Street and the international financial institutions. Secondly the corporate world and the banks are investing in second and third world markets to then metabolize the profits exclusively and distribute the dividends within a closed circuit they control and from which they draw all the benefits. This not only means a part of those profits aren't reinvested at home, but distributed among the shareholders; but worst of all treats the host market purely in predatory, exploitative and speculative terms. Hence the real problem with both the US and the world's economy is the greed and mendacity of this capitalism of "overlords." Statistically I don't know exactly what percentage of corporate activities controls a disproportionate markets share globally, but I'm certain it is quite small.

This is the situation to be addressed. These are the lobbies to be broken, but these are precisely the groups to which the ideology your side is so inextricably bound. That the democrats are, in reality, no better, is only a further means to see that the entire system is corrupted probably beyond repair.

PS. If I have to explain to you where wealth is "most needed," then you are not only mentally impared and deficient but meniacal.
Quote:
your unwillingness to even consider, let alone address, certain issues is frightful.
Certain issues that remain un-named? Just make some issues up and assign a position to me.

Quote:
At the same time I have no wealth to spread around.
Oh. So without some skin in the game you want to make the rules. Convenient.

Quote:
capital being given an intrinsic value it in fact does not have:
The only thing propping up our monetary system is faith. It's been this way for many decades. This is nothing new.

Quote:
These are the lobbies to be broken, but these are precisely the groups to which the ideology your side is so inextricably bound. That the democrats are, in reality, no better, is only a further means to see that the entire system is corrupted probably beyond repair.
Corruption is a problem worldwide. It's not a R or D, Liberal or Conservative issue, or even just an American one.

Quote:
If I have to explain to you where wealth is "most needed," then you are not only mentally impared and deficient but meniacal
Feel free to refrain from the over the top rhetoric.

I can almost guarantee you there will be at least some differences between what you deem "most needed" and what your neighbor does.
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  #2525  
Old 04-16-12, 18:55
Scott SoCal
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Originally Posted by blutto View Post
... I may have substituted straw wind-mills ( which may be a bit more to the point ) for obsession...but aside from that very minor quibble, absolutely bang on...congrats...

...as an aside...sometimes I wonder if the dis-connect between the Faux reality that poor man is trapped in and the real thing is the reason he indulges in his other obsession....a very sad state of affairs no matter how you cut it...

Cheers

blutto
Cycling???
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  #2526  
Old 04-16-12, 19:05
Scott SoCal
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Blutto and Rhub, this one's for you.

Quote:
WASHINGTON -- We ought to leave "happiness" to novelists and philosophers -- and rescue it from the economists and psychologists who think it can be distilled into a "science" and translated into pro-happiness policies. Fat chance. Government can often mitigate sources of unhappiness (starvation, unemployment, disease), but happiness is more than the absence of misery. If we could manufacture happiness, we could repeal the "human condition."

Somehow this has escaped the social scientists who want to make happiness the goal of government. They argue that economic output (gross domestic product) doesn't measure everyth

ing that's important in life -- family, friends or religion, for example. True, but it doesn't follow that "happiness" can be targeted as an alternative. No matter. Their latest brief is the "World Happiness Report," which ranks countries by their "subjective well-being" (the technical label for happiness) as recorded by public opinion surveys.
Quote:
Well, if economic growth doesn't make people happier, what's the point? The happiness movement is often anti-growth. Yes, the poorest countries need growth to relieve misery. But otherwise, "the lifestyles of the rich imperil the survival of the poor," writes Columbia University economist Jeffrey Sachs in the happiness report. "Climate change is already hitting the poorest regions."

This sounds reasonable but isn't. There are two flaws. First, the Easterlin Paradox may be untrue. A recent study by economists Justin Wolfers and Betsey Stevenson of the University of Pennsylvania found that higher economic growth does raise happiness in most countries. Second, even if the Easterlin Paradox survives (economists are quarreling), growth is essential to maintaining existing happiness.

Look at the European Union. As its growth has dropped, unemployment has risen to 10.2 percent. And unemployment reduces well-being, says the happiness report, through lower income and the "loss of social status, self-esteem, (and) workplace social life."

All rich societies already try to balance economic growth with social justice, security and environmental progress. The happiness movement would merely impose more intervention. It "boils down to having zealous politicians regulate the rest of us into their version of happiness," argues Marc De Vos of the Itinera Institute, a Belgian think tank.
Quote:
The "pursuit of happiness" may be a "right," as the Declaration of Independence says. But the achievement of happiness is not an entitlement. The happiness movement is at best utopian; at worst, it's silly and oppressive.


Boom. Bang on.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...by_113847.html
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  #2527  
Old 04-16-12, 19:14
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VeloCity VeloCity is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott SoCal View Post
Yes, I read that.

Massive new debt on top of massive old debt... but flooding the market with more currency, allowing inflation to run seems to be Krugman's answer to most current economic problems.

I guess debt isn't really debt if you own the printing press.
So which is it? Austerity is the way to go ie Krugman is wrong about Europe? Or is it that Krugman is right in that we should be doing the opposite of what Europe is doing? But in the US, it's the Rs that want to do what some European countries are doing - Spain, for eg, with massive spending cuts and severe austerity programs - and it's Obama and the Ds that support stimulus spending.

So really, isn't Spain basically doing almost exactly what Rs want to do in the US?
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  #2528  
Old 04-16-12, 19:14
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Glenn_Wilson Glenn_Wilson is offline
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Originally Posted by blutto View Post
... I may have substituted straw wind-mills ( which may be a bit more to the point ) for obsession...but aside from that very minor quibble, absolutely bang on...congrats...

...as an aside...sometimes I wonder if the dis-connect between the Faux reality that poor man is trapped in and the real thing is the reason he indulges in his other obsession....a very sad state of affairs no matter how you cut it...

Cheers

blutto

Is President Obama a Socialist or a Communist?

I think he is a Socialist but ever since that politician in Florida brought up the possibilities of Communist working in Congress well I just thought there could be a chance.

By the way …your boys on the border are a little slow on the shut down.
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something less offensive
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  #2529  
Old 04-16-12, 19:50
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VeloCity VeloCity is offline
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Is President Obama a Socialist or a Communist?
He's a Muslim Marxist. How those are reconciled, you'll have to ask a conservative.
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  #2530  
Old 04-16-12, 19:53
Fetisoff Fetisoff is offline
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Originally Posted by Glenn_Wilson View Post
Is President Obama a Socialist or a Communist?
He's a KGB agent. Didn't you hear? Well here's proof

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