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Professional road racing A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

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  #511  
Old 11-05-12, 09:57
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Ryo Hazuki Ryo Hazuki is offline
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Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
If this happens all the time, how come Kolobnev told Vino he wouldn't have done it for anybody else?

This doesn't look like your regular agreement to cooperate. This looks like plain old race throwing. This should be obvious to anyone who isn't a fanboy.
it coul;d very well mean that without vino kolobnev would not not have collaborated in teh escape as much as he did.

again, 150.000 euros is peanuts for kolobnev compared to his salary. explain that to me
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  #512  
Old 11-05-12, 09:58
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Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
So basically, Contador could have paid Rodriguez and Valverde to let him win on Fuente De and it would be all fine just because it was exciting. Brilliant logic there . Paying someone to win a race doesn't make a victory a real victory.



Paying someone to work with you does make more sense if both of the riders would have payed the other if they won. But I would think that you wouldn't have to pay the other guy to work with you in as big a race as LBL. They would easily be able to figure out that they would have a better chance working together then they would having to compete with all the guys in the chase. Unless of course Vino and Kolobnev are obsessed with money and refused to work together unless they got some money out of it.


Even if it is something that goes on a lot, that doesn't make it a good thing. And it doesn't mean we should just turn a blind eye to it. Buying a race is akin to doping IMO.
you really don't understand, do you? the bigger the race. the more the other has to pay because winning a big race means big money (contract).
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  #513  
Old 11-05-12, 10:14
coinneach coinneach is offline
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Originally Posted by Dutchsmurf View Post
Sounds like Vino is your basic sportsman then. Because they all have that killer instinct that makes them want to win no matter what. That instinct is what makes them that good.
That instinct is what makes him bad: he was so blatant in the 07 TdF, if there had been more like him, cycling would be in an even worse place than it is today.
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  #514  
Old 11-05-12, 11:34
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
I'm still waiting for yours
It's right here on this thread.

Not that I have any hopes of convincing you. If you fail to see what is wrong with adulterating a sports competition by selling and buying it for money, then I'm afraid we have nothing to talk about.
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  #515  
Old 11-05-12, 11:42
Dutchsmurf Dutchsmurf is offline
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Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
So basically, Contador could have paid Rodriguez and Valverde to let him win on Fuente De and it would be all fine just because it was exciting. Brilliant logic there . Paying someone to win a race doesn't make a victory a real victory.
As long as they had been more careful with their emails, yep. Because the only reason why we are having a discussion about Vino's LBL win is that we actually know about it in this case. While in the countless other races where this might have happened, we just don't know. And besides, I'm coming from the Vino paid Kolobnev to work with him angle, so your comparison doesn't really work. Although it wouldn't surprise me to see some money going from Contador to Tiralongo.
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  #516  
Old 11-05-12, 12:44
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Originally Posted by Dutchsmurf View Post
As long as they had been more careful with their emails, yep. Because the only reason why we are having a discussion about Vino's LBL win is that we actually know about it in this case. While in the countless other races where this might have happened, we just don't know. And besides, I'm coming from the Vino paid Kolobnev to work with him angle, so your comparison doesn't really work. Although it wouldn't surprise me to see some money going from Contador to Tiralongo.
Ok, gotcha. Just turn a blind eye to any kind of corruption in cycling and let it continue without doing anything to try and make it better. Sounds like a good motto for the UCI, now that I think about it.

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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
you really don't understand, do you? the bigger the race. the more the other has to pay because winning a big race means big money (contract).
Missed my point completely there, I don't think paying the other guy for their work should be necessary to make them work with you. I think the chance of winning a monument should be enough to get both riders to work together without needing an exchange of money. I don't doubt that paying another rider to work with you is something that goes on but I am not sure if it is what went on in this case.
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  #517  
Old 11-05-12, 13:49
Dutchsmurf Dutchsmurf is offline
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Originally Posted by Afrank View Post
Ok, gotcha. Just turn a blind eye to any kind of corruption in cycling and let it continue without doing anything to try and make it better. Sounds like a good motto for the UCI, now that I think about it.
How would you make it better tho? Give Uran a 6 month ban because he was looking over his shoulder a bit too long? Take away Vino's LBL win because he paid his friend for working with him? Take away Wiggins' Tour win because Froome was clearly better? Take away the Schlecks 2nd and 3rd place in LBL because why would any smart rider go with Gilbert to the finish without placing any attacks, unless Gilbert paid them?
Of all the problems cycling has, I don't think this should be a top priority. The top priority can be found in the clinic and everything that is related to that. The possibility (because it still isn't proven) that Vino bought LBL isn't enough for me to consider it a major problem.
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  #518  
Old 11-05-12, 13:55
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El Pistolero El Pistolero is offline
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Originally Posted by Dutchsmurf View Post
How would you make it better tho? Give Uran a 6 month ban because he was looking over his shoulder a bit too long? Take away Vino's LBL win because he paid his friend for working with him? Take away Wiggins' Tour win because Froome was clearly better? Take away the Schlecks 2nd and 3rd place in LBL because why would any smart rider go with Gilbert to the finish without placing any attacks, unless Gilbert paid them?
Of all the problems cycling has, I don't think this should be a top priority. The top priority can be found in the clinic and everything that is related to that. The possibility (because it still isn't proven) that Vino bought LBL isn't enough for me to consider it a major problem.
Schlecks always race like this, so your conclusion is wrong. There's no proof for the Olympics, so that's wrong as well. Wiggins didn't pay Froome to wait and he's his team-mate.

The e-mails between Kolobnev and Vino however leave little doubt.
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
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Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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  #519  
Old 11-05-12, 14:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchsmurf View Post
How would you make it better tho? Give Uran a 6 month ban because he was looking over his shoulder a bit too long? Take away Vino's LBL win because he paid his friend for working with him? Take away Wiggins' Tour win because Froome was clearly better? Take away the Schlecks 2nd and 3rd place in LBL because why would any smart rider go with Gilbert to the finish without placing any attacks, unless Gilbert paid them?
Of all the problems cycling has, I don't think this should be a top priority. The top priority can be found in the clinic and everything that is related to that. The possibility (because it still isn't proven) that Vino bought LBL isn't enough for me to consider it a major problem.
What pistolera said. There is no proof of any wrong doing in any of those cases. Yet there is in the Vino case. Paying someone to lose a race like the emails indicate is not something that we should turn a blind eye towards. When there is proof of it then something should be done about it. Making the sport cleaner should be the top priority, but I don't see why we shouldn't try to stop riders from buying races as well. I see buying a race as just another form of doping.
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  #520  
Old 11-05-12, 14:49
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Originally Posted by ElChingon View Post
The rumor of riders buying races is as old as bike racing.

What are the chances those who were paid off will say anything

As many accusations that have been hurled over the years there have been no action on any of them (that I remember of).

Maybe the ultimate dope of bike racing, hard cold cash.
Yup, been around just as long as bike racing, just like dopage!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descender View Post
. . . If you fail to see what is wrong with adulterating a sports competition by selling and buying it for money, then I'm afraid we have nothing to talk about.
You know, that is an interesting thought. If this were boxing, I'd care. If it were horse-racing, baseball, soccer, the Olympics, ANYTHING except pro wrestling, which has obviously been nothing more than staged entertainment for at least 50 years - anything else - and I would care. Pro cycling? I don't care. Why? I don't know.

And I've thought about it, but not really coming up with an answer. Maybe it is because, for the most part, you aren't changing the outcome that much. The rider who pays has to be one of the ones in there at the end anyway, so they are strong. Maybe it just seems like they are just making an informal agreement to work together for one rider, like an ad hoc team, instead of throwing a match. It would be like a basketball player trying to change a game by paying an opponent to help him score two baskets in the 3rd quarter. It might affect the overall, but just as likely would not.

I care about doping - but that is because since steroids and O2 stuff changes the game. Before that, I thought it was stupid, not critical. Like Fignon's quote.
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