The Logisitics of Doping - Page 2 - CyclingNews Forum

Go Back   CyclingNews Forum > Road > The Clinic

The Clinic The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 06-30-09, 12:33
Snake8 Snake8 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 165
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboytrash View Post
Vaughters said that Lance would always refill in the helicopter when he left mountain stages. The other one is the "rest day refill"…… Jump in an unmarked car or ride off to hotel and get the uploadf. That’s how they caught Vino..... he was seen getting into a van with blackened windows, came back 20 minutes later and rode the entire peleton off his back wheel.
That seems neither likely nor plausible. Vaughters said this to you? If this was the case someone would have seen something. I can understand omerta from the riders, but your really pushing credibility to think you could do it in a helicopter wihtout anyone seeing/saying something. Oh and Vino failed a test that is how they caught him as i recall.



Quote:
Originally Posted by unsheath View Post
Just have a read about what T-Mobile did with the Freiburg report. Over the border excursion, 750ml top up, and back to the tour. It's not rocket science.
Right, easy. Now tell me how 180 riders are doing this? Sorry but it strains credibility that all the riders have some mole who arrives with refrigerated blood and they all disappear for a bit on rest day and NO ONE sees anything.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-30-09, 12:42
Pietro's Avatar
Pietro Pietro is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 249
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unsheath View Post
Just have a read about what T-Mobile did with the Freiburg report. Over the border excursion, 750ml top up, and back to the tour. It's not rocket science.
No kidding. The 'drug' of choice these days is one's own blood. Micro fillups as the red blood cells get depleted and no test can show this. Passports have been manipulated to show an abnormally high hematocrit already so when they test and it sits at 46, day after day...they walk.

As long as they keep the bags labeled and a doc does all this....Hopefully their liver will survive.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-30-09, 13:50
Escarabajo's Avatar
Escarabajo Escarabajo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA - Central Time
Posts: 4,754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake8 View Post
Right, easy. Now tell me how 180 riders are doing this? Sorry but it strains credibility that all the riders have some mole who arrives with refrigerated blood and they all disappear for a bit on rest day and NO ONE sees anything.
I think here is where I disagree with you. I don't think is 180 riders doing the Blood Doping deal. They all can be doing some sort of doping but not the blood doping. The riders on blood doping may be as low as 20 to 40 riders (give or take). Again this an unfounded guess from reading a lot of posts in this forum.

Last edited by Escarabajo; 06-30-09 at 14:45.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-30-09, 14:07
Mellow Velo's Avatar
Mellow Velo Mellow Velo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9,293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake8 View Post

Is it really at the level of someone sneaking a refrigerated pouch of blood into hotel rooms in some sort of hidden container?

Seriously, anyone who's been there or knows how this #h!t is done, I'd love to hear.
I'm no expert on this, I have to be honest, but there is a story about Tricky Dickie, while at Polti.
Polti make vacuum cleaners and the "lads" allegedly stashed enough EPO in a shipment to fuel the entire peloton.
Don't know if anyone can back me up on this.

As for sneaking stuff in and out of hotels, try googling Lance, actovegin, 2000 Tour, for a historical perspective.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-30-09, 14:12
Bala Verde's Avatar
Bala Verde Bala Verde is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 7,112
Send a message via MSN to Bala Verde Send a message via Skype™ to Bala Verde
Default

Didn't know where else to place this but Sinkewitz allegedly testified that there was systematic doping use at QST, when he rode for them between 2003-2005.

I guess the logistics are explained on these training camps he speaks of... Doctors take the goods with them and determine before hand when and where someone needs to be medicated.

Kohl was just exposed as being a dealer of doping products as well. So I guess some of the logistics come from the riders themselves. If you need to be good in a classic, you just popped by Kohl, and paid him for what you wanted. During the Grand Tours, logistics are obviously a little trickier, since you are in competition for 3 weeks in one area. But as Matschiner did, he visited, or arranged for a hotel room somewhere near Kohl and then did a transfusion in 20m.

Last edited by Bala Verde; 06-30-09 at 14:21.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-30-09, 14:26
Mongol_Waaijer Mongol_Waaijer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 620
Default

It isn't so complicated.

In the same way that riders have different abilities, they also have different abilities with regard to doping.

The top GC guys have the money and support infrastructure to do blood transfusions, teke the very best (ie. most expensive) products and be reliably assured of covering their tracks. The richest and most succesful teams can afford to blood dope their entire team (Disco, T-Mobile for example) This is why they finish 5-10 minutes ahead of the remainder of the field on mountain stages.

Microdosing on epo, or just dosing on it, can be done by individuals throughout the peloton, most likely without knowledge of their teams nowadays. Fail a test for epo and they are forced to hang you out to dry.

The riders with the least money and status might have to resort to cheap readily available "dirty" steroids to give them an edge. Very high risk of getting caught and the products are nowhere near as effective as blood doping or designer drugs. Downside of this is fanboys can say that only losers dope because they are crap etc.

Money buys you information and expertise on how to improve performance artificially and get away with it. But occasionally mistakes are made - either doctors get sloppy, rider gets greedy and insists on taking risks (think Vino, Landis)

I genuinely believe that some riders have some extent of "immunity" from undue interference from some arms of the "anti" doping authorities, and certainly from their national bonds.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-30-09, 17:10
jackhammer111
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongol_Waaijer View Post
It isn't so complicated.

In the same way that riders have different abilities, they also have different abilities with regard to doping.

The top GC guys have the money and support infrastructure to do blood transfusions, teke the very best (ie. most expensive) products and be reliably assured of covering their tracks. The richest and most succesful teams can afford to blood dope their entire team (Disco, T-Mobile for example) This is why they finish 5-10 minutes ahead of the remainder of the field on mountain stages.
There's nothing but hearsay on disc. No Johan rider has ever tested positive while on one of his teams. They even fired a rider last year, and lost a wrongful termination lawsuit, based on his blood values just to get him off the team beacuse they suspected he was blood doping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongol_Waaijer View Post
Microdosing on epo, or just dosing on it, can be done by individuals throughout the peloton, most likely without knowledge of their teams nowadays. Fail a test for epo and they are forced to hang you out to dry.

The riders with the least money and status might have to resort to cheap readily available "dirty" steroids to give them an edge. Very high risk of getting caught and the products are nowhere near as effective as blood doping or designer drugs. Downside of this is fanboys can say that only losers dope because they are crap etc.
Hogwash, anabolic steroids are the easiest to test for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongol_Waaijer View Post
Money buys you information and expertise on how to improve performance artificially and get away with it. But occasionally mistakes are made - either doctors get sloppy, rider gets greedy and insists on taking risks (think Vino, Landis)

I genuinely believe that some riders have some extent of "immunity" from undue interference from some arms of the "anti" doping authorities, and certainly from their national bonds.
Personally, I don't understand how you an justify watching the sport you describe. If I thought anything close to that I wouldn't waste my time
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-30-09, 17:51
Snake8 Snake8 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 165
Default

I am not arguing that it is not done, just that the sheer logisitcs of doping it seems unlikely that ALL the riders could be doing this. Not that it could not happen, but it seems that if everyone was doped to the gills, there should be a lot more evidence of the ilk, "So and so saw so and so ditching a bag of needles." And yes i make that reference with a specific incident in mind.

If its that organized too many people would have to know.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-01-09, 08:38
joe_papp's Avatar
joe_papp joe_papp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posts: 1,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake8 View Post
Damn, now I'm even posting doping threads....

Anyway, my question for those of you "in the know" how do so many cyclists dope and not get caught with bags of blood, syringes etc., It seems to me that not all cyclists are smart and some at least would get popped, or rather would get popped more often by getting caught with "stuff" than by failing a test.

I know there are examples of both, Kayle L, Puerto etc., I am not asking for a rehash of what has happened but maybe some idea of how a guy like LA who is so high profile could get away with dragging around bags of blood, syringes etc. Wouldn't transport of these items be illegal?
Why? Are you trying to develop your own personal or even organized doping ring and you need help determining the logistics?

How does someone get away with asking a question like that? It's the equivalent of asking how to murder a hooker and dispose of her body w/o getting caught, in that they're both criminal acts now in many countries.. And you want to discuss how to go about achieving that criminal objective? A public forum is probably not the best place to do that...
__________________
joepa

"There is a proper dignity and proportion to be observed in the performance of every act of life"

* email me
* read my (old) blog
* visit my website
* read my (new) blog
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-01-09, 08:46
Mongol_Waaijer Mongol_Waaijer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 620
Default

Jackhammer,

I rarely watch it but I used to do it myself, albeit at a less glamorous level than presented here on cyclingnews. I actually quit in disgust in december, with the last straw being the return of your hero.

No Johan rider has ever tested positive bla bla bla

You've seen the list of riders who have tested positive right?

Well, we could make an even longer list of riders from the last 15 years who have confessed / been implicated / been suspended without testing positive / retired and admitted - and NONE of them tested positive either.

You really don't get it do you?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.