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  #401  
Old 12-29-12, 22:31
King Of The Wolds King Of The Wolds is offline
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Originally Posted by Captain Sensible View Post
Cav and Wiggins are not English but apart from that I think that's not a bad list .
Cav isn't but Wiggins has an English mum, lived in England all of is life from the age of 2 onwards, has an English accent and has competed for England in the Commonwealth Games.
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  #402  
Old 12-29-12, 23:03
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Originally Posted by King Of The Wolds View Post
Cav isn't but Wiggins has an English mum, lived in England all of is life from the age of 2 onwards, has an English accent and has competed for England in the Commonwealth Games.
I agree with what you say but Dan Martin rides for Ireland in the WC but I don't class him as Irish .
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  #403  
Old 12-29-12, 23:22
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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Originally Posted by il_fiammingo View Post
1. ULLRICH, Jan (1x TOUR; 1x VUELTA; 2x WCTT; 2x TDS; 1x OLY; 1x HEW; 1x EMIL; 7x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)
2. ZABEL, Erik (4x MSR; 3x PT; 1x AGR; 1x HEW; 6x GREEN; 3x RHT; 1x SS; 12x TDFSTAGE)
3. ALTIG, Rudi (1x VUELTA; 1x WC; 1x RVV; 1x MSR; 1x RHT; 1x PIEM; 1x GREEN; 8x TDFSTAGE; 4x GIROSTAGE)
4. THURAU, Dietrich (1x ZUR; 1x LBL; 1x SS; 1x E3H; 6x TDFSTAGE; 2x GIROSTAGE)
5. KLODEN, Andreas (2x BASQ; 1x TA; 1x ROM; 1x PN)
6. LUDWIG, Olaf (1x AGR; 1x 4DUNK; 1x RHT; 1x GREEN; 1x E3H; 3x TDFSTAGE)
7. GOLZ, Rolf (1x ZUR; 1x FW; 2x MTO; 1x PIEM; 1x PB; 2x TDFSTAGE)
8. JUNKERMANN, Hans (2x TDS; 1x ZUR; 1x RHT)
9. WOLFSHOHL, Rolf (1x VUELTA; 1x PN; 2x TDFSTAGE)
10. VOIGT, Jens (5x CRI; 1x GPN; 2x TDFSTAGE; 1x GIROSTAGE)
Again, feel like Täve Schur needs mentioning in here.

Täve was voted the greatest sportsman in the history of the DDR with nearly half the popular vote in 1979 and 1989; he was a 2x winner of the Friedensfahrt - the first person ever to do so, and a winner of the Rund um Berlin, the most prestigious one-day race in the Ostbloc at the time; a 4x winner of the DDR-Rundfahrt, with countless stages to colour those victories, a 2x amateur World Champion, 6x national champion on the road, 2x national champion in the TTT and a national champion in cyclocross; he would have won a third consecutive amateur World title had he not allowed a teammate to take the win ahead of him in 1960. He sometimes gets a bit of criticism due to his link to the politics of the time, a bit like Magni perhaps this sometimes overshadows him.

Glad to see Olaf Ludwig in there, but I do feel he should be higher up if we take his amateur career into account, with an Olympic gold and 2x Peace Race wins, a record-breaking 38 stage wins of the Course de la Paix and the most successful jersey-collector of all time (195 jerseys picked up at the end of a day's racing, more than twice the next most successful collector, Ryszard Szurkowski) and the Tour de l'Avenir to add to his already impressive professional record.
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  #404  
Old 12-30-12, 00:28
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Tough to make a 10 for Scotland but the top 5 will be recognised:

Robert Millar
David Millar
Graeme Obree
Chris Hoy
Brian Smith

Other guys worth a mention who rode the Tour are Billy Bilsland and Ken Laidlaw although I have to admit I know nothing about them except that Bilsland was a mentor of sorts for Robert.

Of course, Armstrong and Hamilton both have Scottish roots
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  #405  
Old 12-30-12, 09:05
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Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
Again, feel like Täve Schur needs mentioning in here.

Täve was voted the greatest sportsman in the history of the DDR with nearly half the popular vote in 1979 and 1989; he was a 2x winner of the Friedensfahrt - the first person ever to do so, and a winner of the Rund um Berlin, the most prestigious one-day race in the Ostbloc at the time; a 4x winner of the DDR-Rundfahrt, with countless stages to colour those victories, a 2x amateur World Champion, 6x national champion on the road, 2x national champion in the TTT and a national champion in cyclocross; he would have won a third consecutive amateur World title had he not allowed a teammate to take the win ahead of him in 1960. He sometimes gets a bit of criticism due to his link to the politics of the time, a bit like Magni perhaps this sometimes overshadows him.

Glad to see Olaf Ludwig in there, but I do feel he should be higher up if we take his amateur career into account, with an Olympic gold and 2x Peace Race wins, a record-breaking 38 stage wins of the Course de la Paix and the most successful jersey-collector of all time (195 jerseys picked up at the end of a day's racing, more than twice the next most successful collector, Ryszard Szurkowski) and the Tour de l'Avenir to add to his already impressive professional record.
Schur and Ludwig should be in the Top 3 of every German rider list.
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  #406  
Old 12-30-12, 11:08
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Capablanca and me Capablanca and me is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertine Seguros View Post
Bálint Szeghalmi was at Lampre last year, but I don't think he was really up to the required level for the WT. It's a shame that Hungary doesn't have that level of cycling history, and quite strange.

I can name Antal Megyerdi (former winner of the Tour de Slovaquie) and János Juszkó as partially-notable Hungarian riders from the past though, thanks to participation in the Friedensfahrt. And the Palfy twins, who are notable not because of any achievements on the bike but because they are also second-tier racers in biathlon.
Bálint Szeghalmi, yepp!, forgot him, but no class as Bodrogi

just look at this list:
Hungaryan TT CH:
1996. Bodrogi László AC Bisontine
1997. Bodrogi László AC Bisontine
1998. Bodrogi László VC Lyon-V.V
1999. Víg Aurél Compensario Cuoio
2000. Bodrogi László Mapei Quick Step
2001. Bodrogi László Mapei Quick Step
2002. Bodrogi László Mapei Quick Step
2003. Bodrogi László Quick Step Davitamon
2004. Bodrogi László Quick Step Davitamon
2005. Szekeres Csaba P Nivó Betonexpressz 2000 Kft SE
2006. Bodrogi László Credit Agricole
2007. Bodrogi László Credit Agricole
2008. Bodrogi László Credit Agricole

"It's a shame that Hungary doesn't have that level of cycling history, and quite strange"

after the WWII. came a dark period
before the WWII or WWI Hungary has the most or second most trackfield in Europe, and we have a national race with serious future and the possibility to get a famous stage race

http://filmhiradok.nava.hu/watch.php?id=250

after the regime change in 1989 real change not coming, the two main problems is: no real cycling culture, and no money
Bodrogi changes his nationality not just because his family life, but because the chaotic situation in hungaryan cycling (thats the real shame, and some olympics level athlete (not cyclist) changes their nationality nowdays) and look at the neighbours countrys they have very talanted cyclist (Sagan, Velits brothers, Brajkovic, Popovych, Honcsar)

need to mention János Sipos, he was the Eurosport commentary in Hungary and great cyclist in the 70s, he make strong efforts to make cycling popular, he organized the renewed Tour de Hongrie (that race does't 'live' nowdays , last editon was in 2008 )
but he died this years at age 61, he is the middle



he crying after Bodrogi's silver at the worlds tt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGQZnCZl5pk

nice knowledge, btw, good to know people outside Hungary knows about hungaryan cycling
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  #407  
Old 12-30-12, 14:37
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Fiammingo, the top10's that I gave were based on my personal subjective impression and memory. My point rankings gave different top10, closer to yours. However I completely forgot about Fritz Schaer, he should be up there.


So I've been attacked on many front. Not sure I can respond to everything.

First, the Italian races of the interwar years were almost strictly raced among Italians with a depleted field, which means that 90% of the palmares of Girardengo, Binda and Bartali are overrated. The three won a handful of big races outside of Italy but since 90% of their record was in Italy, we should assess them according to the standards of their time and not 2012 standards.

Second, what matters to me his consistency/quantity. A rider who is racing all year long is more than a one-hit wonder. And so is a guy like Franco Bitossi. 17 years of racing at top level, winning classics, stage races and dozens and dozens of Italian semis + placing highly in dozens of classics and stage races and all this despite suffering from bout of extrasystoles (arrhytmia). He's definitely got his place up there. I can't think otherwise.
And Fiammingo's "maths" confirm this.


Fuente or Galdos? Fuente is known to many nowadays, while Galdos is unfairly forgotten. Isn't that sad? Again I chose for the guy who remained for 12 years at the top level while Fuente was barely racing for 5 years.

--------------


I'm also very much interested in Eastern cycling of the Cold War Era. But the problem for me is that we don't have many references and those that would rather point to the fact that the West had the advantage at least up until the 70's.

Merckx went to East Germany in 1963 at age 18 and would beat most of the best East Germans who were in their prime (including Schur). So what could these guys have done against the top Western riders of their era? Every year there were a handful of Western amateurs at the Peace Race who did well despite their age disadvantage (I think Vanspringel raced it, and definitely Danguillaume).

At the Worlds of Heerlen 1967, you had at one point Monseré and Klaus Ampler (Uwe's father who was also one of the best) as head of the race. Close to finish. Monseré then suddenly refused to take the lead, which is incomprehensible, they were caught. Graham Webb won the race, De Vlaeminck was 7th, Monseré 10th and Ampler out of the top10.

So Monseré did not fairly race OK and Ampler deserved to win OK but Jempi was 19 and Ampler 26.

In the 70's there were points of references though because several race organizers would experiment an "open" system based on the tennis model, which allowed the Eastblockers to race against the Western pros.
Pierre Chany in his La fabuleuse histoire du cyclisme talks about it. He said that Merckx was rather enthusiastic about it, as opposed to Guimard, who campaigned against it . That's how, in 1974, Szurkowski managed race Paris-Nice with the Polish national team. They did rather well until the stage to Mount Faron. Szurko finished 28th overall and 2nd to Merckx in one stage. The following year, the Polish were back and Szurkowski was this time 3rd in one stage behind Leman and Van Linden. Observers would say that Szurkowski was a good rider but no more.

The Polish were also allowed to race the Circuit de la Sarthe and more importantly the Tour of Luxembourg (which was a prestigious stage race at that time). Mieczyslaw Nowicki was 7th at the Tour of Luxembourg 1976 which Verbeeck won. I don't know if he was a good rider on the other side of the Curtain(?).
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  #408  
Old 12-30-12, 14:54
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Libertine Seguros Libertine Seguros is offline
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Of course, that they were limited by not being allowed to be pro, and the nature of some of their racing, certainly affected things. Schur by 1963 was starting to wind down, anyhow. Danguillaume was one of a group of westerners who won the Course de la Paix in the 60s, alongside Guyot and Maes. I think also, the lack of true, sizable mountains to compete with those of the western races is certainly a factor. Certainly if the calendar was comparable to that of the west Sergej Sukhoruchenkov would have been far more successful, as his Peace Race triumphs were mostly built on destroying the race in the mountains, hence his domination of the 1979 edition featuring some strong mountain stages in Slovakia. Maybe if the Tour de Yugoslavia had been on a similar level to the Tour de Pologne or the DDR-Rundfahrt (I'm not expecting it to match up to the Peace Race) it could have been more interesting.

Given the financial support and stronger race calendar of the westerners, I think guys like Schur could have acquitted themselves very well in the West. Especially in the classics, bearing in mind some of the horrific Kopfsteinpflasterstraßen and Plattenwegen they had to ride in the Friedensfahrt.

Nowicki was initially a track racing specialist who moved up to the road in the mid 70s. His best result in the Peace Race was 8th (also in 1976), and he contributed well to Poland's TTT results alongside Szozda and Szurkowski, but I wouldn't have called him one of the most notable Ostbloc riders at the time.
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Last edited by Libertine Seguros; 12-30-12 at 15:01.
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  #409  
Old 12-30-12, 15:29
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Xavier.Lopez Xavier.Lopez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanternrouge View Post
Wiggins is English.
Why Wiggins is not considered as an Englishman for some people ?
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  #410  
Old 12-30-12, 15:37
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Originally Posted by Xavier.Lopez View Post
Why Wiggins is not considered as an Englishman for some people ?
Now this is the story all about how
My life got flipped, turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute just sit right there
I'll tell you how I became the Knight of a country called England

In East-Flanders born and raised
On the cycling track where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool
And all riding some bikes outside of the school
When my drunk Aussie dad, he was up to no good
Started making trouble in my livelihood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said "You're moving with my parents in Maida Vale"

I whistled for a cab and when it came near the
License plate said "God Save the Queen" and had a dice in the mirror
If anything I could say that this cab was rare
But I thought nah, forget it, yo homes to England!

I pulled up to a house about seven or eight
And I yelled to the cabby "Yo, ****ing ****er!"
Looked at my kingdom I was finally there
To sit on my throne as the Knight of England
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Originally Posted by Ryo Hazuki View Post
horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato
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Originally Posted by The Hitch
Goss will woop boonens candy ass in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week

Last edited by El Pistolero; 12-30-12 at 15:47.
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