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Old 09-12-09, 15:50
Digger Digger is offline
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Default Allen Lim interview

This does not fill me with confidence, especially the way he downplays the value of EPO and talks about the importance of technology as another big reason for the increase in speeds from the early 90s. Same as JV in that regard.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interv...an-perspective
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Old 09-12-09, 16:48
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Originally Posted by Digger View Post
This does not fill me with confidence, especially the way he downplays the value of EPO and talks about the importance of technology as another big reason for the increase in speeds from the early 90s. Same as JV in that regard.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interv...an-perspective
Wow. He forgot to mention Powerbars.

Does he entertain the notion that a doping doctors have actually used scientific methods to track their rider's performances and tailor their programs? There's a reason certain products and methods are common, because they have been shown over time to be effective.
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Old 09-12-09, 19:23
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Wow. He forgot to mention Powerbars.

Does he entertain the notion that a doping doctors have actually used scientific methods to track their rider's performances and tailor their programs? There's a reason certain products and methods are common, because they have been shown over time to be effective.
unfortunately, Lim, JV, and I will even add Prentice Steffen have crossed to the dark side. They are not a bunch of naifs, they are wilfully ignorant, very much a "look no evil, hear no evil" operation.

Was it Aqua Sapone that called the team "a pack of ar$eholes"?

This American exceptionalism is wearing thin. And wearing thin fast. If I was a clean rider, and told by some team engaging in such a specious PR campaign that these results were possible, I would be damn angry. This is all their marketing with the strategic positioning of their brand. Don't they have "100% clean" slogans on their bidons? One writes it, axiomatically deigns it true?

I am sorry, but it is too much.

All the justifications he mentions have very marginal (declining) rate of return. Rolling resistance, drag coefficient, and sweat wicking kit, does not explain how some of his riders have transformed from mediocre professionals who never won a prestigious race, to being in the top 10 riders in the peloton.

I think Armstrong should outsource his PR contract to Garmin, this is a new revenue stream for them. When Armstrong next tenders his communications brief, I think Garmin can beat Public Strategies for the remit. Get some back office synergies there, <wink wink, if ya know what I mean>

Last edited by blackcat; 09-12-09 at 23:38. Reason: add: [B]that these results were possible[/B]
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Old 09-12-09, 22:27
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Apparently what a rider needs to win races are confidence, believe, faith and positive thinking. This way you can beat riders who are using PED's.

BULL****!
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Old 09-12-09, 23:13
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...They are not a bunch of naifs, they are wilfully ignorant, very much a "look no evil, hear no evil" operation...This American exceptionalism is wearing thin. And wearing thin fast...This is all their marketing with the strategic positioning of their brand. Don't they have "100% clean" slogans on their bidons? One writes it, axiomatically deigns it true?
I automatically distrust "hear no evil, do no evil" behaviors but I'm not sure this is exactly the pattern we are seeing form Garmin. Running a clean team almost certainly means accepting fewer wins, so it makes sense to try and counteract the likely reduced media coverage with some positive spin. At the same time it's important to believe that it is possible to win any given race, otherwise riders are mentally defeated before they start. The belief structure Lim is describing would be a useful tool for this. I'm not saying I agree with all of it factually, just saying it's a useful tool.

As an anglophone, what Garmin are doing and saying makes some sense to me, although I have yet to form an opinion on whether or not the team actually is clean. My question for you is, what actions and public statements would you expect from a European team that was determined to be clean? Would it look any different? If not, it's the American exceptional-ism argument that's wearing thin...
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Old 09-12-09, 23:28
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I automatically distrust "hear no evil, do no evil" behaviors but I'm not sure this is exactly the pattern we are seeing form Garmin. Running a clean team almost certainly means accepting fewer wins, so it makes sense to try and counteract the likely reduced media coverage with some positive spin. At the same time it's important to believe that it is possible to win any given race, otherwise riders are mentally defeated before they start. The belief structure Lim is describing would be a useful tool for this. I'm not saying I agree with all of it factually, just saying it's a useful tool.

As an anglophone, what Garmin are doing and saying makes some sense to me, although I have yet to form an opinion on whether or not the team actually is clean. My question for you is, what actions and public statements would you expect from a European team that was determined to be clean? Would it look any different? If not, it's the American exceptional-ism argument that's wearing thin...
I do not think they are in the least bit credible. And ultimately, branding and strategic position, must be underpinned by credibility. This will come back and bite them.

My criticism is primarily based on their disinformation. Armstrong deserves harsh criticism, because he is a pathological lier. Well, Slipstream have pulled all their communication strategy from the Bill Stapleton/Armstrong example. They may not run a systematic medical program with Spanish doctors yet plausible deniability is pure commercial expedience. How is there a practical difference with riders pursuing some plan on their own, as long as they keep their limits within the biological parameters.

The continental teams are realist, or outright dirty.
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Old 09-12-09, 23:34
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Originally Posted by afpm90 View Post
Apparently what a rider needs to win races are confidence, believe, faith and positive thinking. This way you can beat riders who are using PED's.

BULL****!
100% agreed
I'd love to see the research from this Allen Lim proving to the world how is possible to raise your HCT, TT leves, performance, recovery & cycling skills by "having big confidence, positive thinking & clean methods".....
but hey- some cyclist claims to the world that "you have to believe in miracles"
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Old 09-12-09, 23:39
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It's the usual smoke and mirrors stuff. If advances in psychology/nutrition/bike technology make the difference, how come guys on today's carbon wonder machines still can't beat Pantani's records for Alpe d'Huez, Mortirolo etc., set by a guy on inferior equipment, a crappy diet and with some pretty interesting psychological issues? It's because all these things are smallfry compared with increasing oxygen delivery to the cycling muscles. In the court of cycling, oxygen is king. All else is small change.
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Old 09-12-09, 23:46
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It's the usual smoke and mirrors stuff. If advances in psychology/nutrition/bike technology make the difference, how come guys on today's carbon wonder machines still can't beat Pantani's records for Alpe d'Huez, Mortirolo etc., set by a guy on inferior equipment, a crappy diet and with some pretty interesting psychological issues? It's because all these things are smallfry compared with increasing oxygen delivery to the cycling muscles. In the court of cycling, oxygen is king. All else is small change.
and everything that Garmin does, can be neutralised. Using the free market model, if all these gains are possible, it stands to reason all other teams will enact such operations.

But the sport has been professional for a while, and many teams have dialed in those variables. Lemond, Banesto, Telekom, Saiz, Riis, Armstrong. All peripheral tinkering, has very marginal returns. No doubt they should be pursued, but stop spinning the public.

All this spin just reinforces the status quo, not actually a reform, and improvement. Smug self-satisfied disposition. Not helpful.
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Old 09-13-09, 00:01
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As our Lord and Guru once said, 'It ain't about the bike'.

Put it this way, if I went out and did a 40k TT clean on an all singing, all dancing carbon wunderbike; had a course of EPO and came back and did the same TT jacked at 60% on a run of the mill steel road bike, I'd bet my life savings (not that I have any) that the latter time would clock in easily faster than the first. But hey, it's all about aerodynamics, nicht wahr?
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