::::~ Wheelbuilders thread ~:::: - Page 35 - CyclingNews Forum

Go Back   CyclingNews Forum > Bikes & Gear > General

General Which tyres for Paris-Roubaix? Whose time trial bike is fastest? Suspension mountain bikes or singlespeeders? Talk equipment here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #341  
Old 09-27-11, 02:35
Parera Parera is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 361
Default Wheels for Papa Bear

As I mentioned in the other thread, stripping my bike of parts and placing them on my father's Cannondale...what should I do for wheels? I have the Mavic Aksium, probably just need a truing and they are good to go; only problem is they are lower spoke count and my dad is 210 lbs (15 more than at my heaviest when I was riding these things). For a low mileage guy, would these be fine...

OR

The wheels that came with the CAAD9: Cannondale "C3" 32h Hubs (probably cheap stuff from Taiwan, I imagine), DT Competition spokes and Mavic CXP23 rims.

...

Yeah, this is stupid; not even a question. The choice is obvious, haha.
Reply With Quote
  #342  
Old 09-27-11, 13:20
RDV4ROUBAIX's Avatar
RDV4ROUBAIX RDV4ROUBAIX is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 2,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WheeledCampionissimo View Post
Hi all,

The title of the thread might seem too cryptic, however I wanted to properly summarise what my inquiry is about. I am wondering whether a mixed 2X/4X lacing pattern is a good idea for a 36H White Industry H3 hub configured for Campagnolo 11speed gruppo.

1. Preliminaries
After reading Jobst Brandt's Bicycle Wheel, I wonder why the 4X pattern that he advocates is not favoured or followed or commented in wheel building forums. Jobst suggests that 4X is the most tangential pattern, best to transmit torque and therefore, recommended to be used on the rear wheel. Also, Sheldon Brown refers to Crow's foot pattern, suggested by Robert Torre as whimsical.

The H3 rear hub produced by White Industries, for 11 speed Campagnolo has the following characteristics, as illustrated in the excellent 28-hub review:

Center to flange: 38mm/16mm
Bracing angle: 7.8/3.3
Tension differential: 42%.
From White Industries web site, we know that
measurements are 40.5 mm for left (low flange) and 55.0 mm for right (high flange).

2. Intended build
I have a 36 hole H3 hub to be laced on an Ambrosio Excellence rim, using Sapim Race spokes. I fancy a classic build and I am on a budget constraint. Performance-wise what could ubiquitous CX-Ray contribute to in such low aero scenario apart from increasing ££?

3. Actual Question
i) Is it sensible for a 36H H3 hub to try 4X lacing on the Drive Side (DS) and 2X on the Non Drive Side (NDS) to maximise torque transfer while improving tension differential?

ii) Is a 4X lacing pattern limited by the right flange dimension of the H3, in the sense that there could be undesirable crossings (stress points) among spokes?

iii) Is it true that for the right flange dimensions of the H3, the 4X pattern is the most tangential?

iv) Could the 3X Crow's foot on DS with 2X or radial on NDS be a sensible option?

v) Is it the case that that tension differential could be alleviated by using shorter spokes on the NDS, therefore 2X? Could radial further improve spoke tension over 2X?

My educated guess is that NDS also transfers around 8% of torque. From this perspective, 2X could be better off than radial. Also, 2X is easier on the hub than a radial pattern; stress area of spoke on the hub under 2X is much larger than a single point of stress, nevermind H3 accepts radial.

I know RDV4Roubaix and BustedKnuckle are inquisitive wheel builders and will shed some light on these questions. I greatly value your opinions on sensible suggestions about lacing patterns for a 36H H3-Campagnolo hub.

Once built, I do not want to change the lacing pattern of the wheel, that is why I am asking these questions before hand rather than finding out the hard way.

Many thanks to all for your sensible answers, ideally backed up by empirical facts.
Instead of answering a 7 part question, I'll make it short and sweet. J. Brandt is a relic, when he wrote that book (early 80's), extremely outdated by today's standards, the sum of the parts of a bicycle wheel weren't that great quality, the alloys used in spokes, hubs, and rims were very soft, 4 cross is a pattern of that era, don't know anybody that still does 4x. The current crop of parts are much better in terms of stiffness and durability namely due to the quality of the alloys and mfg processes, 4x not needed.

Keep it simple, especially if you're new to wheel building. Build your wheels 3 cross and you'll be happy as a clam.

Tittle of the thread too cryptic? And 7 part questions on a forum are what?.. Ha!
Reply With Quote
  #343  
Old 09-27-11, 21:16
Parera Parera is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 361
Default

So, DT Champion or Competition? Differences in durability/wheel stiffness? The only thing I know is that the wheelset will end up being a big heavier (130g by my calculations; not really an issue). Also, ride quality better one way or the other? Thanks for helping me overcome my ignorance.

(Other reason I ask is my mechanic really only stocks champion...once again, that's southern oregon for ya!)
Reply With Quote
  #344  
Old 09-28-11, 12:54
Bustedknuckle's Avatar
Bustedknuckle Bustedknuckle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,443
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parera View Post
So, DT Champion or Competition? Differences in durability/wheel stiffness? The only thing I know is that the wheelset will end up being a big heavier (130g by my calculations; not really an issue). Also, ride quality better one way or the other? Thanks for helping me overcome my ignorance.

(Other reason I ask is my mechanic really only stocks champion...once again, that's southern oregon for ya!)
Comps, better wheel using them vs Champs altho straight gauge spokes work fine.
Reply With Quote
  #345  
Old 10-05-11, 10:45
Parera Parera is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 361
Default

So if a guy were to get some cyclocross wheels built, which of course, I'm not, because I have three other bike projects and such an endeavor would be ghastly; signs of a sick, twisted mind. But, hypothetically, if I did have a CX frameset...can I just stick with the 105/velcoity A23 combo and get some decent clincher tires like Michelin Mud 2...or is tubular REALLY worth it for cross? Racing, yes, I know, absolutely; but for a guy who might occasionally hit Cross Crusade and some of the other fun ones, nothing too serious, mainly just going out doing some mudball single track adventures and rural roads to supplement winter riding.

My only gripe is I don't like changing tires cause I'm lazy and worthless. So it will probably end up being an extra set no matter what, unless I completely want to destroy these Mavic Aksiums this winter. Hell, I don't even know what I'm asking; was in an auto wreck (head-on collision) and my neck/back are causing me quite a bit of pain so I'm sleeping. Excuse me...

Was thinking Major Tom Tubular (these are solid, I assume). Basic plan:

1) Build tubular.
2) ?????
3) Profit

Last edited by Parera; 10-05-11 at 10:51.
Reply With Quote
  #346  
Old 10-05-11, 12:51
Bustedknuckle's Avatar
Bustedknuckle Bustedknuckle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,443
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parera View Post
So if a guy were to get some cyclocross wheels built, which of course, I'm not, because I have three other bike projects and such an endeavor would be ghastly; signs of a sick, twisted mind. But, hypothetically, if I did have a CX frameset...can I just stick with the 105/velcoity A23 combo and get some decent clincher tires like Michelin Mud 2...or is tubular REALLY worth it for cross? Racing, yes, I know, absolutely; but for a guy who might occasionally hit Cross Crusade and some of the other fun ones, nothing too serious, mainly just going out doing some mudball single track adventures and rural roads to supplement winter riding.

My only gripe is I don't like changing tires cause I'm lazy and worthless. So it will probably end up being an extra set no matter what, unless I completely want to destroy these Mavic Aksiums this winter. Hell, I don't even know what I'm asking; was in an auto wreck (head-on collision) and my neck/back are causing me quite a bit of pain so I'm sleeping. Excuse me...

Was thinking Major Tom Tubular (these are solid, I assume). Basic plan:

1) Build tubular.
2) ?????
3) Profit
Just get the 105/A23 built, great all around wheelset for cross or road.

If you are seriously going to compete in road or cross, Major Toms.
Reply With Quote
  #347  
Old 10-06-11, 22:05
Parera Parera is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 361
Default



Got me some proper wheels. Just need my cross frame now.

edit: decal has since come off, so don't point out the obvious. :P
Reply With Quote
  #348  
Old 10-08-11, 10:46
Parera Parera is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 361
Default

So...I have to say, my ghetto Roubaix setup is pretty awesome. Yes, not tubulars but Vittoria Open Pave w/latex tubes and the A23 rims is pretty awesome. Was doing laps on the cobblestone road in town (300m of nastiness) and I must say, where the hell have I been? Eyes have been opened a bit, makes me want to get some tubulars. The supple tire and latex tube make a huge difference (in addition to the beautifully built wheels). All smiles here, despite a bum back.
Reply With Quote
  #349  
Old 10-08-11, 16:23
RDV4ROUBAIX's Avatar
RDV4ROUBAIX RDV4ROUBAIX is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 2,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parera View Post
So...I have to say, my ghetto Roubaix setup is pretty awesome. Yes, not tubulars but Vittoria Open Pave w/latex tubes and the A23 rims is pretty awesome. Was doing laps on the cobblestone road in town (300m of nastiness) and I must say, where the hell have I been? Eyes have been opened a bit, makes me want to get some tubulars. The supple tire and latex tube make a huge difference (in addition to the beautifully built wheels). All smiles here, despite a bum back.
Good! Then when you're ready to move out of the ghetto, go with Ambrosio Nemesis rims and FMB or A. Dugast Roubaix tires.
Reply With Quote
  #350  
Old 10-09-11, 01:20
Parera Parera is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 361
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDV4ROUBAIX View Post
Good! Then when you're ready to move out of the ghetto, go with Ambrosio Nemesis rims and FMB or A. Dugast Roubaix tires.
32 or 36h at 165 lbs? Mind you, cobble riding is not something I do in the Pacific Northwest...but I've been known to bomb down some washboarded gravel roads in my time.

Last edited by Parera; 10-09-11 at 01:30.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2006 - 2009 Future Publishing Limited. All rights reserved. Future Publishing Limited is part of the Future plc group. Future Publishing Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company registration number 2008885 whose registered office is at Beauford Court 30 Monmouth Street Bath, UK BA1 2BW England.