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Old 11-16-09, 19:55
yakko! yakko! is offline
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Default Contador's doping on Verbier debunked?

So all that talk about Contador having to have cheated on Verbier has "apparently" been disproven:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/22...alculated.aspx

I'm just wondering that, if this is the case, why did it take so long for someone to come out with it?

Italian Doctor Roberto Corsetti said: “Is it useful to continue to want to see what is possible presented as unnatural in light of considerations and data, which, as you see, are questionable and debatable if not clearly incorrect?”

And questions why everyone is throwing guilt at Bert. Does anyone here know enough about those numbers to say one way or another?
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Old 11-16-09, 20:01
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Look, the bottom line here is that VAM calculations are highly inaccurate and it's pretty silly to throw around any kind of accusations based on VAM (and I've maintained this from the beginning BTW). Unless we know the actual power numbers from a calibrated power meter there is just no point in even discussing this.
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Old 11-16-09, 21:22
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VAM doesn't prove anything either way. It certainly can be suggestive, but it's not like crushing the entire field isn't suggestive in and of itself.

He's a great rider, obviously amazingly talented. He also crushed the field nearly as badly as Armstrong used to and beat Cancellara in an ITT.

I sure wouldn't bet that he's clean. Then again, there are few riders at the top of the GT ranks I'd bet on as being clean.
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Old 11-16-09, 23:29
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I know enough about Corsetti to know that him and Vayer have taken very different paths. Just remember who is making these calculations on both sides. Ferrari injected his viewpoint earlier also.
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Old 11-17-09, 00:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red_flanders View Post
I sure wouldn't bet that he's clean. Then again, there are few riders at the top of the GT ranks I'd bet on as being clean.
This I agree with; and again VAM is just not a good source to use as far as attempting to accuse someone of doping or as evidence of them being clean.
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Old 11-17-09, 01:50
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That was a good explanation by Corsetti. Threads earlier in the year had a number of people taking a dig and saying their five cents worth. I asked why VAM was valid. You cannot compare two separate cilmbs in separate years using guesswork and an averaging equation (that is what VAM boils down to). One cannot compare apples and oranges. Few at the time acknowledged if Contador was out of this world, so too were Schleck and the next 3 riders after him, Wiggins, Nibali and Franck Schleck. Consistency and accuracy need to be maintained so the public receives relevant and reliable information. This seems to be much closer than Vayers data.
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Old 11-17-09, 02:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red_flanders View Post
VAM doesn't prove anything either way. It certainly can be suggestive, but it's not like crushing the entire field isn't suggestive in and of itself.

He's a great rider, obviously amazingly talented. He also crushed the field nearly as badly as Armstrong used to and beat Cancellara in an ITT.

I sure wouldn't bet that he's clean. Then again, there are few riders at the top of the GT ranks I'd bet on as being clean.
trees from the forest folks. Red Flanders has it dialed.

was it in 99, Jamie Burrow, still holds the record ascent for Plateau de Beille, ridden in u23 l'Izard, and he bear the u23 World tt champ, Hushovd, in the chrono in that event too.

64 kg guys, even with lowest drag coefficients, doing record ascents, and beating Cancellara in the chrono.

Ofcourse, Contador is a brilliant rider, and he did start out as a chrono rider. And looking at him, his drag profile will be less than Zabriskie, so he is made for chronos not just climbs. But to do both in the one Tour...
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Old 11-17-09, 02:17
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Interesting read, but we talked about VAM until we were blue in the face, and I find myself agreeing with Red and Bike here.

Curious to hear Ross and Jonathan from SOS comment.

Also, keep in mind that as much as anything Lemond asked of Berti: "What is your VO2Max?", a fairly simple question, and AC refused to answer. That drove a lot of people around here's suspicion.
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Old 11-17-09, 02:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpe d'Huez View Post
Interesting read, but we talked about VAM until we were blue in the face, and I find myself agreeing with Red and Bike here.

Curious to hear Ross and Jonathan from SOS comment.

Also, keep in mind that as much as anything Lemond asked of Berti: "What is your VO2Max?", a fairly simple question, and AC refused to answer. That drove a lot of people around here's suspicion.
but the VO2 has been debunked as the be all indicator. It is AN indicator, but not the be all.

Lemond gotta give up that VO2 fixation, otherwise we may as well enter the lab to decide the winner.

I know Alpe was not positing that argument, merely pistolero being coy.

But those in the know, do not even need to ask a question to appreciate what goes on for the GC. Not just pistolero. The reason why these questions are asked, is for a different audience. The audience who assumes since there are drug tests, Lance and pistolero must be clean, because they are tested.
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Old 11-17-09, 03:10
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Correct.

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