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  #21  
Old 04-06-10, 14:32
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Originally Posted by karlboss View Post
how much do you want to spend, how light do you want the bike?
I want to spend between 600 and a grand on the frame. Wheels should cost about a grand (mavic reflex, tubulars, american classic hubs). SRAM Force or Ultegra groupset (Not the lightest, but... $$). I'll scrape together other used carbon tidbits (seatpost, seat, handlebars, etc.) or strip my other bikes for parts. Won't be the lightest by any stretch, but relatively affordable and light enough that I really shouldn't blame the bike for any lack of performance!

Any thoughts on this approach? I know it's pushing $3000 and I could get fully built carbon bike for that price, but I'd probably have to replace the wheels right away so not so much of a bargain.

Maybe I should just go on a diet.
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  #22  
Old 04-06-10, 17:44
shane_fedon shane_fedon is offline
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Hey guys, i thought i would shed a little light.

these frames that are pictured. they are not made at one of the "major" carbon companies as a FYI. The major brands out there use companies like Ten Tec [cervelo, scott, 3T, trek], Martec [specialized,G fisher, kuota, kestrel, fuji, bontranger..as well as others] as they are oem and not offering open molds. As these companies are in the manufacturing buisness, not retail which is why you generally do not see them at any tradeshows with there own booths. people go to them, not the other way around.

then there are other smaller companies like--inda [orbea, ridely, etc.] carbontec [pinerello, de rosa...] ADK [all felt, fuji, kestrel, orbea, etc..] dynamic [ teschner, DT, etc..] just to name a few. these guys have smaller shares and all offer open molds. open molds are frames similar to the ones that are in the pics that started this thread. open molds that come from any of the above companies definitely have the R&D and testing to back them up. They all follow CEN testing as guidleines to help limit law suits, etc... and all can be trusted and reliable. They invest in themselves, which is why you see lower prices compared to the "major brands" out there.

one of the earlier posts on this thread talked about the cost of engineering and develpoment as being behind the bigger costs. They are absolutely right. when molds cost bw $60,000--$130,000 on top of the actual price of producing carbon frames, as a Brand, you have to make that cost back somehow. this is why the pricing is like it is. on top of that, if you brake a frame, or a frame brakes because of manufacturing flaws, then the "brands" all support you and take care of you. when you purchase open mold frames from ebay, or other places on the net, there generally is no support because you are getting a supper deal. you also have to figure in the high cost of the software [avg--$6,000-8,000], the engineers, industrial and graphic designers and you have to re-coup these costs somewhere. As another fyi--when companies recoup there costs for molds, you generally see the major companies lessening the cost for consumers, and of course dumbdown the components in order to offer a cheaper frame or bike to consumers.

the frames in the pics are made by a small companiy called Tantuo. they are in Guangdong Provence, in the south of china, near hong kong. i have never dealt with there frames. i am sure that they do testing, etc.. as they are trying to build there buisness and haveing there own brand "Neasty" they have to back there product up and ensure proper testing and manufacturing or people would not come to them for OEM frames [OEM are frames designed and produced specifically for a brand and are not open molds]

As well, some smaller oem companies will of course modify a open mold frame at the cs, or ss of a carbon bike, just to change a little, but more importantly, it gives them a carbon frame,unique for there companies that want a carbon frame in there lineup, but have a smaller budget in which to accomplish this, though very similar to others. this is a great way of starting out for smaller brands and is common practice.

so, being from the industry as a designer and engineer, just remember, you get what you pay for. if you pay for a non branded frame because the price is incredible, i don't have a problem with that, just remember that most likely if something happens your only out the $400 and can just dump that into another $400 frame. when you pay for a frame that comes from a "known" brand and something happens, you will get support in the form of a warrenty, or a huge discount if the broken frame is broken do to neglegance, as major brands want to help you stay on there bikes!

ok, sorry to be winded. take home msg--buy from a company that stands behind there product, in the end you will have a great bike for years, as well as get the support you need for replacement when things go bad. in the end, you end up paying about the same.

all the best shane
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  #23  
Old 04-06-10, 17:46
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Originally Posted by BroDeal View Post
Those companies take a frame that costs $200 to manufacture, slap a paint job and decals on it, and sell it for $3K - $5k. It is a complete rip off.
Well, that is somewhat of an oversimplification of the cost of producing and delivering ANY product! You have costs involved in setting up and administering a warranty program, dealer networks, taxes, marketing costs, personnel costs, insurance and legal costs, on and on.... If these companies were making $3k+ on each frame, everybody would be getting into this business and the cost would be lowered by competition. Just like any other business, the materials cost is often a small part of the entire cost of converting raw materials to a quality finished product delivered to a customer.
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  #24  
Old 04-06-10, 18:24
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Sure, everybody understands that these big companies need to make the bottom line work, we're under no illusions. I always say if you've got the money to spend go with custom, always. Otherwise you're paying for off the shelf stuff that all the other sheep ride and goes through the ringer paying off all those egregious expenses of the big brands. I will never, ever give my money to a company that pays someone 60k a year to decide what kind of annoying swoopy paint and decal combination would look better on a mass produced frame. And boycott those companies that send a$$hole sales reps to the shops and trade shows with fake tans telling you their jarred sauce is just like the homemade stuff that grandma used to make, so buy the blanks from the source if you must. I did and saved 3 almost 4 grand by doing so.
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Last edited by RDV4ROUBAIX; 04-07-10 at 16:32.
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  #25  
Old 04-06-10, 18:46
shane_fedon shane_fedon is offline
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Originally Posted by db2112 View Post
Well, that is somewhat of an oversimplification of the cost of producing and delivering ANY product! You have costs involved in setting up and administering a warranty program, dealer networks, taxes, marketing costs, personnel costs, insurance and legal costs, on and on.... If these companies were making $3k+ on each frame, everybody would be getting into this business and the cost would be lowered by competition. Just like any other business, the materials cost is often a small part of the entire cost of converting raw materials to a quality finished product delivered to a customer.
Your absolutely right. it is oversimplification on my part as i could easily go into considerably more detail. This is a forum though, so it wasn't necessary.

Also companies aren't makeing $3000 a frame. Briefly, here is how that works, generally take a frame, say $400usd, plus a monocoque fork-$80usd. so your total is $480usd, generally each frame has between a 300-400% markup. say if we use 300% a brand marksup to a dealer--the cost is $1440usd to the dealer. the brand makes a profit of $960usd. the dealer then, say to be conservative uses 200% markup, to make there money back, plus a reasonable profit. that puts the frame in the hands of a consumer for $2880usd retail. Brands usually have the min msrp and a max msrp in order to sell products. so with this, as brief as it is, as well as oversimplified shows you that there is money to be made, which is why brands exist, but yet are actually reasonable for the price you pay.

now i am not saying we shouldn't lower the cost, but there is so much research and development that goes into a frame, that for $960usd per frame the company that brings the said bike to market will eventually make money to not absorb all costs. as well, pricepoints are consently being revised every year and so on! companies that have a good design and sell alot, can then afford to make there losses back earlier and put more money into developing more products. and we haven't even started to discuss marketing the product...etc..there are hugh costs everywhere, on top of supplying pro teams which is a complete money pit, but totally worth it!!

most companies watch each other and the prices are actually very competative for carbon products. where companies really make money, is not in the frames though, it's on completed bikes. assembly, if your numbers are great, are so much cheaper to assemble in asia then elsewhere. as well the products that are spec'd. a company that uses all top shelf componets doesn't make a huge profit. a company that uses mainly lower tier or self branded components make the most. with some exceptions of course, companies that start off a component brand, eventually can offer high quality products for the same reasonable cost as lower tier products because thier numbers are so high they can ask for deeper cuts on the production costs. and if you are one of the really big assemblers--giant, merida and ideal, and you have your own brands, you take home even more profits!

least we forget, we are all in the industry to make great products and make money. it all has a huge cost. consumers, as WE ALL are, have to value, for ourselves that if we buy from solid companies, we might pay more, but we also get more. Always look for the deals though. dealers have to move product at certain times of the year in order to clear inventory, brands have to do the same thing. just always be smart and wether you pay $400 or $1400 hopefully you are happy with your purchase, that's all the really matters!

all the best, shane
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  #26  
Old 04-06-10, 19:54
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the question of buying a frame from china/taiwan is quality/shipment/engineering/warranty.

just by the fact that any ebay search regarding bicyle carbon frames results in hundreds of carbon options means that asia has caught up in their marketing/selling potential.

As the numbers rise on feedback, direct buy from manufacturers, i believe, will become the norm. It is a matter of trust. I would think the big manufacturers are trying to figure out how to cash in on the concept, besides selling all their backstock through Sierra trading Post, as example.

We are seeing an incredible upswing in bikes arriving at the shop, which just got unboxed at the buyers home, and need a tune. And it will continue to rise. New Generation of iphone shoppers.

Most pro clothing is being copied/produced overseas, selling well below cost, with a stiff shipping fee.

The further something travels, the more it is handled. My concern would be in the shipping.

frames just from China

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=car..._dmd=1&_ipg=50

jerseys

http://shop.ebay.com/2allsport/m.htm...d=p3911.c0.m14

if i needed a frame, for example, i would consider this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Black-...item3a596ec225

above frame, could be the price of a high end fork, for all those buyers thinking a name brand fork is necessary.
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  #27  
Old 04-07-10, 01:00
db2112 db2112 is offline
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Originally Posted by shane_fedon View Post
Your absolutely right. it is oversimplification on my part as i could easily go into considerably more detail. This is a forum though, so it wasn't necessary.
I actually agreed with your first post and was not disputing it. My oversimplification comment was directed at the post that I quoted where the comment was made that frames were a ripoff because they only cost $2-300USD to make. Good information in both your posts, thanks for sharing.
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  #28  
Old 04-07-10, 01:07
db2112 db2112 is offline
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Originally Posted by tubularglue View Post
According to Ebay, "Jersey made by 100% polyester,". My only question is, are these knock-offs and are these companies stealing the design? Nowhere does it state these are the original Craft items, though the title implies they might be. You get what you pay for....
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  #29  
Old 04-07-10, 16:26
shane_fedon shane_fedon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db2112 View Post
I actually agreed with your first post and was not disputing it. My oversimplification comment was directed at the post that I quoted where the comment was made that frames were a ripoff because they only cost $2-300USD to make. Good information in both your posts, thanks for sharing.
No worries man! i didn't take offense, i was just agreeing with you too! ha! :-)

have a great day! this is a great topic though! i hope more people keep it going because there is really so much to talk about and let people know so they stop with inuendo!

all the best,shane
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  #30  
Old 04-07-10, 16:39
shane_fedon shane_fedon is offline
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Originally Posted by db2112 View Post
According to Ebay, "Jersey made by 100% polyester,". My only question is, are these knock-offs and are these companies stealing the design? Nowhere does it state these are the original Craft items, though the title implies they might be. You get what you pay for....
i will say that there is definitely scams in the clothing world for certain! beside frames and components.

at rock racing, i know we have very edgy clothing designs, but the funny thing is all the knock offs coming out of china of our clothing! Not only were they stealing designs, but atleast if they do, do a good job of it not the terrible work we are finding for sale on ebay from the said company!!!

i found a company in shenzhen that was knocking off not only our stuff but clothing from assos, Pearl izumi, everyone!

i was going to pay them a visit on my next trip to asia. then i actually got an email from the company asking if they could discuss making clothing for us as they like our style! i guess they like it so much they are knocking it off, and now people want the real thing from them, unbelievable!! :-) besides us putting a ebay "stop selling" request in for counterfiet clothing, when i looked at it there clothing, it was so bad! i would be ****ed paying $40 for a jersey in that quality.

awe what can you do though. i wish our clothing wasn't so expensive for people, but then again we make everything here in LA and we pay our people well to keep there workmanship high, so that the end consumer enjoys the product!

ok, all the best.
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