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28 Apr 2011 16:52

Glenn_Wilson wrote:[font=Verdana]I am all for skimwords. They are very useful. Add me to the list that is in favor of skimwords everywhere inside members posts.[/font]
[font=Verdana][/font]
[font=Verdana]I especially like the way it was put into the forums unannounced. It was a great way to beta test it.[/font]
[font=Verdana][/font]
[font=Verdana]I am also pretty sure if you set up a poll you will find that the minority of users are against the use of skimwords while the majority of users just do not gava or like in my situation I really do like the use of skimwords. I agree 100% with what Daniel Benson has said on the subject.[/font]


You walk a thin line between sarcasm and trolling sir.:D
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User avatar Hugh Januss
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28 Apr 2011 19:23

I have not read all the posts in this thread, so let me ask to see if I understand the problem, since I have not experienced these anomalies yet myself:

When adding a link to a post, the correct link appears to be inserted, but when the link is selected you get directed to some other website (e.g. for adverts or whatever)??

If that is the case, does the "preview post" button alert the poster to the problem... before the final step to "submit reply" is made?
.... that might help weed out otherwise unknowingly bad links.
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28 Apr 2011 20:23

on3m@n@rmy wrote:I have not read all the posts in this thread, so let me ask to see if I understand the problem, since I have not experienced these anomalies yet myself:

When adding a link to a post, the correct link appears to be inserted, but when the link is selected you get directed to some other website (e.g. for adverts or whatever)??

If that is the case, does the "preview post" button alert the poster to the problem... before the final step to "submit reply" is made?
.... that might help weed out otherwise unknowingly bad links.


No, what happens is when you type certain flagged words, such as "Giro" or "Garmin", or "Cervelo" in any context, the forum automatically converts that word to a hyperlink to a pre-determined (and paid for) web page. This occurs AFTER you submit your post.
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28 Apr 2011 21:30

...and the most insidious aspect is that when you do hit the "preview" button, the html link for that "skimword" is completely hidden from view. Even if you quote your own, or another, post that has a skimword already embedded, it will just appear as normal text in the preview window.

Not good.
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28 Apr 2011 22:20

Granville57 wrote:...and the most insidious aspect is that when you do hit the "preview" button, the html link for that "skimword" is completely hidden from view. Even if you quote your own, or another, post that has a skimword already embedded, it will just appear as normal text in the preview window.

Not good.


Check my post above. There's a skimword in it...

Prophetic
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28 Apr 2011 22:42

Granville57 wrote:...and the most insidious aspect is that when you do hit the "preview" button, the html link for that "skimword" is completely hidden from view. Even if you quote your own, or another, post that has a skimword already embedded, it will just appear as normal text in the preview window.

Not good.


Ironically, my above post has two skimwords in it. They appear to be transient as one time you open this thread and "Giro" is hyperlinked, then the next time "Garmin" is, then the next time you don't see any.
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29 Apr 2011 00:46

Granville57 wrote:...and the most insidious aspect is that when you do hit the "preview" button, the html link for that "skimword" is completely hidden from view. Even if you quote your own, or another, post that has a skimword already embedded, it will just appear as normal text in the preview window.

Not good.


gets my vote as very uncool:mad:
i am all for them making money, if you are using my posts, then where is my
fing cut?:mad:
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29 Apr 2011 01:12

I thought it would be interesting to read the T&C's attached to this website just to make sure that skimwords isn't breaking the rules we signed up to.

Section 4 is the relevant one.

4. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO THE WEBSITE: You are responsible for any information, data, text, music, software, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages or other content (“Content“) which you post or upload and/or display (in public or privately) to the Website. Future may (but shall not be obliged to) delete, edit, lock, move or remove any Content without notice and for any reason and/or to record the IP address from which any Content is posted, uploaded and/or displayed without notice and for any reason, including, without limitation, Content which, in our sole discretion, violates these Terms or is or may be irrelevant, out of date, inappropriate or objectionable in any way whatsoever, or in respect of which Future receives any complaint (whether justified or not). By posting, uploading and/or displaying any Content to the Website you warrant that: (a) you own all intellectual property and proprietary rights in such Content or that you have a licence from the owner of such rights to post, upload and/or display such Content on the Website; and (b) the posting, uploading and/or displaying of such Content on the Website and the grant of the licence to Future and its group companies (on the terms set out below) will not infringe the intellectual property or proprietary rights of any third party.

If you upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content to the Website, you automatically: (a) grant other users of the Website and the Website Service the right to access the same and use it in accordance with these Terms, although you can mark Content as private and so restrict access and use to those users to whom you specifically grant access; and (b) grant Future and its group companies a non-exclusive, royalty free, sub-licensable, perpetual, world-wide licence to use, modify, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such Content on and through the Website and the Website Service and in any other form or medium. You continue to own the Content after it is posted to the Website.

You acknowledge that Future will not screen or otherwise check any Content which is submitted by you or any other user of the Website Service before it is posted, not monitor yours or any person’s use of the Website Service. As such, you as the user of the Website Service are responsible for any Content you submit to the Website and the manner in which the Website Service is used under your username. You may take down any Content you have submitted to the Website at any time. If you become aware of any misuse of the Website Service by any person including (without limitation) any posting of Content which violates these Terms, please contact us by following the instructions set out in paragraph 16 of these Terms or click on the “Report this” link at the bottom of the Website page or next to the Content which has been posted.


In my opinion SkimWords contravenes the bolded parts. Opinion?
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29 Apr 2011 02:10

gregod wrote:I just went back to reread some of the first posts and noticed in TSF's post two links, one for garminand one for halfords. when i ran the cursor over halfords, a yellow box clearly indicating that the link was added


DUDE I really like your yellowhat link. I used to go to this place when I lived in Japan. It is awesome.

I love these skimwords. You have my vote to keep it up. LMAO:D
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29 Apr 2011 05:17

M Sport wrote:I thought it would be interesting to read the T&C's attached to this website just to make sure that skimwords isn't breaking the rules we signed up to.

Section 4 is the relevant one.



In my opinion SkimWords contravenes the bolded parts. Opinion?


At the very best it is advertising by entrapment.
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29 Apr 2011 05:31

M Sport wrote:I thought it would be interesting to read the T&C's attached to this website just to make sure that skimwords isn't breaking the rules we signed up to.

Section 4 is the relevant one.
As such, you as the user of the Website Service are responsible for any Content you submit to the Website and the manner in which the Website Service is used under your username.

In my opinion SkimWords contravenes the bolded parts. Opinion?
Thanks for that. I gotta admit, I never once read the T&C's (didn't even see them hidden down there).

I won't try to argue any of the legal semantics to all of this, but here are a few more observations. I find them "interesting."

To the above excerpt: It's difficult for me to "accept responsibility" for my Content, if that very content itself is being manipulated.

Here are some other points of interest from the same source:
GENERAL RULES RELATING TO CONDUCT: The Website Service is made available for your own, personal use. The Website Service must not be used for any commercial purpose whatsoever or for any illegal or unauthorised purpose.


And here are some other things that "we" are not supposed to do.

5. SPECIFIC RULES RELATING TO CONDUCT: ...you agree not to:

b. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content which contains...any chain letters, pyramid-selling schemes, bulk mail, junk mail or similar.

e. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content for any commercial or business purpose including (without limitation) any Content which contains any advertising or promotional materials.

g. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content which is false, misleading, un-necessary and/or repetitive...

h. Upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content to a part of the Website which is irrelevant to the subject matter of the Content.

v. Upload, post or otherwise display any Content comprising an advertisement or accept payment or anything of value from any person in exchange for you uploading, posting or displaying any Content or otherwise performing any commercial activity on or through the Website.

As I stated above, I'm not the least bit interested in arguing or debating these points with anyone that runs the site. I'm sure that there are multiple ways to justify or explain any of the seeming contradictions laid out here. I couldn't care less about trying to "win" one side or the other of that particular "argument."

But does CN really want to dance around all these issues?
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best laugh ever

29 Apr 2011 05:31

Glenn_Wilson wrote:[font=Verdana]I am all for skimwords. They are very useful. Add me to the list that is in favor of skimwords everywhere inside members posts.[/font]
[font=Verdana][/font]
[font=Verdana]I especially like the way it was put into the forums unannounced. It was a great way to beta test it.[/font]
[font=Verdana][/font]
[font=Verdana]I am also pretty sure if you set up a poll you will find that the minority of users are against the use of skimwords while the majority of users just do not gava or like in my situation I really do like the use of skimwords. I agree 100% with what Daniel Benson has said on the subject.[/font]


Ta GW.

As HJ indicates: walking a tight rope while skating on very thin ice :D
ciao js

John

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on a serious note

29 Apr 2011 05:49

Daniel Benson wrote:"Our apologies for not notifying the Cyclingnews community in advance that we're testing Skimwords on the Cyclingnews forum. This is a short term test and we are monitoring your feedback through the forums and the response rates to the ads themselves.

We understand that a minority of users have an issue with this kind of advertising but advertising is how we fund the site. Ads allow us to provide you with news and race reports 24/7 and for free - and they fund this forum. We are investigating a few different advertising models over the coming months in an attempt to find new ways for our advertisers to engage with you in a way that you find interesting and to that end we have created a forum thread for your feedback on your preferred ad formats (insert link here).

We will continue to work hard to maintain the balance between advertising and editorial and appreciate your support and feedback on this. We will ensure that in future we let you know what we're up to and we hope you take the opportunity to provide us with constructive feedback on how you would like our advertisers to communicate with you."


I am so disappointed that CN chose to beta test without notifying the users. Of all the issues arising from "sk1mw0rds" this is the most alarming.

From Daniel's first post, I infer that even Daniel was unaware of the beta test.

Nobody can reasonably object to CN obtaining fair revenue. Fair as in that reasonably required for the comfortable ongoing operation of CN. Fair also as in regard to the respect afforded its stakeholders. On the second definition...CN=FAIL.

I suggest that (even if it meets the first definition) SWs probably fails the second above definition of fair, and I vote NO! (at this time in the absence of options :o).

CN's apology IMHO failed to achieve the level of consideration that CN normally affords to its stakeholders.

I look forward to CN improving both its internal and external communication.

regards js

ps if SWs are implemented then transparency of use is a must (if my continued presence is desired :confused:)

pps SWs don't show up on my browser, therefore I have no idea of any monster I may create
ciao js

John

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29 Apr 2011 12:29

gregod wrote:I just went back to reread some of the first posts and noticed in TSF's post two links, one for garminand one for halfords. when i ran the cursor over halfords, a yellow box clearly indicating that the link was added by skimwords appeared.

Image

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I get the same yellow box but it doesnt go far enough. There is a significant delay (in web times) before the box appears, certainly enough time to click the link before the box appears. Double underscoring is the standard approach.

That doesnt take away from the fact that advertising in our freely provided material is taking the mick. The forum brings a lot of people to cn and in turn generates advertising revenue, we provide the content free of charge. Skimwords is a step too far.

Look at post 15 on this page
http://www.knowledgesutra.com/forums/topic/37718-get-paid-to-post-on-forums/
That is how skimwords look best imo (kontera), obvious and non sneaky
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29 Apr 2011 14:55

Trying to get around all of it is an irritation too. Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.

This results in myriad time and effort-consuming methods of circumventing these words, either with constant deliberate typos (like getting around the swear filter) or by inserting code for bold or underline and then un-bold or un-underline in the middle of words. If this is a word we use consistently on the forum, such as Vaughters' team or the Italian Grand Tour, then this is a nuisance at best. It's like taking away our ability to freely discuss some of the topics that are most desirable to discuss.

Either that or the board gets filled with code, which makes it almost unreadable to the new user who can't figure out why we keep talking about "Team Slipstream Chipotle presented by H3O" or the "Ronde van Italië" - or is derided as a spammer when they post about the real names for these things.
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29 Apr 2011 15:51

Libertine Seguros wrote:Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.


Bingo

You write a scathing commentary on Team fill-in-the-blank and their ethics/internal testing/whatever, voicing your strong displeasure with them, yet your post becomes populated with links to their very website, generating revenue for CN AND the very team you are voicing your displeasure with.
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29 Apr 2011 16:10

MacRoadie wrote:No, what happens is when you type certain flagged words, such as "Giro" or "Garmin", or "Cervelo" in any context, the forum automatically converts that word to a hyperlink to a pre-determined (and paid for) web page. This occurs AFTER you submit your post.


words that come to mind to describe this: wacko, clever, ah sheet. Maybe some admins from cycling forums has hacked in and planted a little gift, and maybe it's a disgruntled former CN employee :mad:
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30 Apr 2011 00:12

TeamSkyFans wrote:I get the same yellow box but it doesnt go far enough. There is a significant delay (in web times) before the box appears, certainly enough time to click the link before the box appears. Double underscoring is the standard approach.

That doesnt take away from the fact that advertising in our freely provided material is taking the mick. The forum brings a lot of people to cn and in turn generates advertising revenue, we provide the content free of charge. Skimwords is a step too far.

Look at post 15 on this page
http://www.knowledgesutra.com/forums/topic/37718-get-paid-to-post-on-forums/
That is how skimwords look best imo (kontera), obvious and non sneaky


I agree about the delay; it could be deceptive. I checked out post 15. The link in that post was obvious, but nothing indicated that it was a sponsored link. Maybe that with the floating box would be good.

Libertine Seguros wrote:... Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.
...


MacRoadie wrote:Bingo

You write a scathing commentary on Team fill-in-the-blank and their ethics/internal testing/whatever, voicing your strong displeasure with them, yet your post becomes populated with links to their very website, generating revenue for CN AND the very team you are voicing your displeasure with.


At first I was agnostic about the skimwords, but more and more I am coming around to thinking that they are inherently deceptive.
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30 Apr 2011 01:46

Libertine Seguros wrote:Trying to get around all of it is an irritation too. Say I don't want my posts to be adverts for companies I don't support, or even ones I do support but don't actually want to shill for.

This results in myriad time and effort-consuming methods of circumventing these words, either with constant deliberate typos (like getting around the swear filter) or by inserting code for bold or underline and then un-bold or un-underline in the middle of words. If this is a word we use consistently on the forum, such as Vaughters' team or the Italian Grand Tour, then this is a nuisance at best. It's like taking away our ability to freely discuss some of the topics that are most desirable to discuss.

Either that or the board gets filled with code, which makes it almost unreadable to the new user who can't figure out why we keep talking about "Team Slipstream Chipotle presented by H3O" or the "Ronde van Italië" - or is derided as a spammer when they post about the real names for these things.

That is a horrible scenario you describe. I was ALMOST in tears but errrrrrr not.

Seriously this is a nothing issue and there are many people crying about nothing.

All types of places do this and it is just part of Cycling News making money. Yet the negative or the folks who do not like it is in the NEGATIVE. MOST members of this message board have decided not to even spend a second contributing to this mess and yet the minority is screaming the most.

Honestly you guys are TROLLING CYCLING NEWS just by general definition of trolling. TROLLS. :eek:
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