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Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

From the kilo to the hour record, if it's on the velodrome it goes in here

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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

03 May 2015 11:24

Image


Not a bad start for Wiggins, eh?
Shame
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03 May 2015 12:51

its important to do 2 rides like Rominger to get it perfect
IndianCyclist
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

03 May 2015 22:48

Shame wrote:Image


Not a bad start for Wiggins, eh?

Not if he intends to break the hour record it's not. It would be a disastrous start, way too hard.

BTW - the second effort that day was much slower <54km/h and 30W less power.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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04 May 2015 13:18

"disasterous"

You don't get it. This was a 16 minute ride at 55 kph, not an hour ride.

From this I can calculate what his hour pace should be, based on his power curve.

This was just his first week of his hour preparation. If your goal is 54, you have to do some training over 54.

He was very consistent as well. This too is a big factor in success.
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Re:

04 May 2015 23:10

Shame wrote:"disasterous"

You don't get it. This was a 16 minute ride at 55 kph, not an hour ride.

I think I get it, which is why I also pointed out that his second 15km effort was significantly slower and at a lower power. I have coached and consulted on several successful hour record attempts, I have a little bit of an idea on this stuff.

Shame wrote:From this I can calculate what his hour pace should be, based on his power curve.

We can all make an estimate but there will be a range when extrapolating 16-min power out to one-hour power.

Do you have his power curve?

Shame wrote:This was just his first week of his hour preparation. If your goal is 54, you have to do some training over 54

You might but it is not necessary. In some cases such over speed training at the track can be detrimental. I'd prefer valuable track time be used for race pace execution practice - reinforcing good pacing and line riding habits. Fitness development work can be done elsewhere. Going too hard at the track is not good practice IMO.

Shame wrote:He was very consistent as well. This too is a big factor in success.

He was unable to do two 15km efforts consistently.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

05 May 2015 11:47

It is really bizarre that you put down Wiggins 15K workout. It's the basic equivalent of Boardman's 56 kph world record pace. (Both Boardman and Wiggins agree that the Lotus with the Superman is at least 1 kph faster. I don't know how Wiggo fit on the bike but he's ridden it at full speed. When you suggest never riding over a one hour pace, I would severely question your skills as a coach. Alex went over his average toward the end of his effort. You don't do that without practice. Wiggins is one of the most consistent track riders. First, he was really in his lines for that run. Second, his lap times only varied by about 0.2 seconds. "Inconsistent"? Think again.
Shame
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

05 May 2015 21:37

Shame wrote:It is really bizarre that you put down Wiggins 15K workout. It's the basic equivalent of Boardman's 56 kph world record pace. (Both Boardman and Wiggins agree that the Lotus with the Superman is at least 1 kph faster. I don't know how Wiggo fit on the bike but he's ridden it at full speed. When you suggest never riding over a one hour pace, I would severely question your skills as a coach. Alex went over his average toward the end of his effort. You don't do that without practice. Wiggins is one of the most consistent track riders. First, he was really in his lines for that run. Second, his lap times only varied by about 0.2 seconds. "Inconsistent"? Think again.

He rode the Lotus bike in superman position for that first 15km run? :eek:

That's what's bizarre. Why train on a bike and in a position you are unable to execute on the day? Bit of fun I suppose. Good for him.

I've never questioned Wiggins' track abilities. He will set a new world mark, by about 1km.

And I did not say one should never ride over one hour pace. I said that valuable track time is better spent on higher priority things, like race pace practice, tweaking one's position and aerodynamics, trialling different kit and clothing options, testing gearing options, understanding how you perform beyond 45 minutes from a fatigue, body position and ride line POV, refining the communications strategy between athlete and coach, riding on different days/conditions and checking how that impacts you on the day and gearing adjustments and so on. It's not well spent riding on a bike you can't use.

Supra threshold power work, if required, can be readily done elsewhere - use the track time for higher priorities that matter.

For an accomplisher pursuit rider, Wiggins doesn't need to learn how to ride faster than hour pace. He already knows how to ride faster. Any half decent trackie can ride faster for shorter durations. Alex rode faster at the end of his ride because he could - he had the energy to do so. It had nothing to do with some magical skill he practised that's required when you go > 53km/h. Heck even masters fattie riders go faster than that in team pursuits. :)

Even so, when doing multiple efforts >15 minutes, going too hard in the first one defeats the purpose of the session, provides little additional physiological benefit and indeed it can mean the balance of training for the day is compromised.

But if you are saying he was not even riding his own bike for that first 15km effort but an illegal bike, then perhaps his power was not too hard to begin with, and we should instead focus on his second effort 15km effort ridden at 53.X km/h as being more instructive of his form last week.
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

05 May 2015 22:29

"He rode the Lotus bike in superman position for that first 15km run. "

No, he rode his hour bike. Again, you seem to get confused easily. Is English your primary language?

Wiggins once rode the Lotus in the superman position and found he could go much faster than his current bike. Why own the bike and not ride it at some point?) I think he wanted to see what speed on his bike would be the equivalent of doing 56 on Boardman's bike. It seems the only value in that would be to see if he can beat Boardman in theory at least. I mentioned before trying to equate Boardman's ride with today's bike and position. But, it is hard to be accurate since wattage changes with position, as Boardman stated that his wattage was lower in the Superman position but his speed was faster. At least Wiggins knows what is possible for his ride (if he can hour as good as Boardman.)

"I've never questioned Wiggins' track abilities."
You did question his training when you said training at 55 kph was foolish and I called you out on that. It may boil down to opinion. I know it works.

"Wiggins doesn't need to learn how to ride faster than hour pace."
Of course he does. Look at AD's ride. A good chunk of it was over the 52.9 pace. If you only train at 53, you will struggle to do 53.5-54. You won't even know how long you could sustain it. I thought AD's coach did a great job of slowing him down went his speed started to spike too much at the 50 minute mark. I've been there and it is tough not to roll too fast at that point.

"we should instead focus on his second effort "
By your reasoning, should we focus on his warm-up or cool-down?
How many time trials (beside tail-winds and negative elevations) for ten miles have averaged over 55 kph? (excluding those caught doping)
Shame
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

06 May 2015 01:38

Shame wrote:
How many time trials (beside tail-winds and negative elevations) for ten miles have averaged over 55 kph? (excluding those caught doping)

To answer the above question.....in the UK only one
that I am aware of: last year Mr. Alex Dowsett did 17
min 20 sec for the British 10 mile tt record.

And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends. :)
User avatar oldcrank
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

06 May 2015 05:54

Shame wrote:No, he rode his hour bike. Again, you seem to get confused easily. Is English your primary language?

Wiggins once rode the Lotus in the superman position and found he could go much faster than his current bike.

I speak and write English just fine thanks.

I asked for clarification about the bike used because the way you referred to it before implied the reason he went that quick in his first 15km run was he was riding the Lotus/Superman:
Shame wrote:It is really bizarre that you put down Wiggins 15K workout. It's the basic equivalent of Boardman's 56 kph world record pace. (Both Boardman and Wiggins agree that the Lotus with the Superman is at least 1 kph faster. I don't know how Wiggo fit on the bike but he's ridden it at full speed.

But you have clarified that you meant at an earlier time, not during this session, thanks.

So IOW he simply rode too hard, and couldn't back it up for the second 15km effort.

Shame wrote:I mentioned before trying to equate Boardman's ride with today's bike and position. But, it is hard to be accurate since wattage changes with position, as Boardman stated that his wattage was lower in the Superman position but his speed was faster. At least Wiggins knows what is possible for his ride (if he can hour as good as Boardman.

Boardman still managed ~440W for his superman hour ride. I don't think it buggered up his power all that much. He was however very aerodynamic. I've only tested 3 riders with aerodynamics in his range. We know it would have required a power to CdA ratio in the vicinity of 2400+W/m^2.

Not sure I'd take much from Wiggins riding on that bike - as you point out it would not have fit properly and not been much of a comparison.

Shame wrote:"I've never questioned Wiggins' track abilities."
You did question his training when you said training at 55 kph was foolish and I called you out on that. It may boil down to opinion. I know it works.

That's not questioning his abilities, but rather the strategy of riding too hard. Even the best do it and no matter how you spin it, it's a mistake.

Going 0.1 sec/lap too quick on race day is a mistake, let alone 1km/h faster. 0.1 sec/lap is 8W at Wiggin's power and pace. Going 55 instead of 54 is a 25W error and that can be very costly.

Shame wrote: "Wiggins doesn't need to learn how to ride faster than hour pace."
Of course he does. Look at AD's ride. A good chunk of it was over the 52.9 pace. If you only train at 53, you will struggle to do 53.5-54. You won't even know how long you could sustain it. I thought AD's coach did a great job of slowing him down went his speed started to spike too much at the 50 minute mark. I've been there and it is tough not to roll too fast at that point.

His coach did a fine job of keeping him in check, and Alex did a fine job of trusting his coach. I've definitely been there with a head strong athlete who had failed an hour attempt badly before I got my hands on him and sorted out his pacing.

Shame wrote: "we should instead focus on his second effort "
By your reasoning, should we focus on his warm-up or cool-down?
How many time trials (beside tail-winds and negative elevations) for ten miles have averaged over 55 kph? (excluding those caught doping)

No idea what warmups have to do with anything - that's just a red herring. Nor 10-mile TTs for that matter. This is a track record, not a road one. Whilst there is overlap with physiology and the physics, there are many differences and specific issues for a track hour that require attention compared with a road TT.

My point was he did 2 (TWO) x 15km effort that day, not just one.

He was unable to sustain the high pace of his first effort during his second effort. Indeed he was unable to sustain even his target hour pace for his second 15km effort. That's what happens when you go too hard in your first effort. You can't back it up.

Now it's amazing he can ride that quick.
He will set a new record for sure barring any technical problems or illness.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

06 May 2015 06:01

oldcrank wrote:
Shame wrote:
How many time trials (beside tail-winds and negative elevations) for ten miles have averaged over 55 kph? (excluding those caught doping)

To answer the above question.....in the UK only one
that I am aware of: last year Mr. Alex Dowsett did 17
min 20 sec for the British 10 mile tt record.

Hard to sensibly compare UK road TT pace with indoor track pace. Too many variables outdoors - road surface, variability in gradient, wind of course, but mostly the massive impact traffic has on air flow, effectively creating a permanent tailwind.

oldcrank wrote:
Shame wrote:
And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends. :)

Good point, that could well be the case.
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06 May 2015 11:12

Bit obnoxious there brad

Talking to The Times - and reflecting on fellow Brit Alex Dowsett's new world record for the hour of 52.937 kilometres, set in Manchester last week - Wiggins said: "It sounds a bit horrible to say, but I think I could break the record tomorrow.

"But I don't just want to break it, I want to put it right up there, as far out of reach as I can."
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

06 May 2015 12:44


And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends. :)


Of course he is. Thanks for joining my discussion. I guess some people only feel good about themselves when they trolll, argue, and proclaim their 'abilities'. He doesn't get why Wiggins rode at 55 kph, and he's a coach? Wig has done a lot at 54 this week and appears he could ride 54 tomorrow if he wanted. Who really cares what his third interval was after such a display? first he says he must have used an illegal bike to ride at 55 (what?), then he says Wig should be embarrassed that he didn't do two of those efforts in a row at 55. I think this demonstrates how hard it is to find a coach who really knows how to train. I guess the mess is partly my fault for not being able to ignore something stupid. I always have to correct it.

It was nice to hear Dowsett say he will at some point try to beat whatever number Wiggins puts up. Obree must have smiled when he heard that. May 16 is the time trial. I hope the weather is good.
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06 May 2015 14:28

Oh dear...
User avatar King Boonen
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06 May 2015 16:18

so he's going after rominger eh?

**** my life, if i see that it would be a legendary moment.
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

06 May 2015 18:43

I don't think anyone considers rominger's efforts as anything, except Dr. Ferrari.

Anyway, here's Brad last week.

Image
Shame
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

06 May 2015 18:44

and his new hour shoes

Image
Shame
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

06 May 2015 22:40

Shame wrote:

And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends. :)


Of course he is. Thanks for joining my discussion. I guess some people only feel good about themselves when they trolll, argue, and proclaim their 'abilities'. He doesn't get why Wiggins rode at 55 kph, and he's a coach? Wig has done a lot at 54 this week and appears he could ride 54 tomorrow if he wanted. Who really cares what his third interval was after such a display? first he says he must have used an illegal bike to ride at 55 (what?), then he says Wig should be embarrassed that he didn't do two of those efforts in a row at 55. I think this demonstrates how hard it is to find a coach who really knows how to train. I guess the mess is partly my fault for not being able to ignore something stupid. I always have to correct it.


I have a name, it's disrespectful to ignore it.

I have not trolled. I addressed the specifics of information provided in this thread, discussed its merits and added context.

You provided a comment that was ambiguous about which bike he rode and I sought to clarify that, which you did while at the same time questioning my English comprehension skills. I made no claim about the bike he used, I posed a question in order to clarify your ambiguous statement.

It's unfortunate you seem perhaps a little affronted by this and have resorted to personal attack and strawman statements rather than focus on the content of what I've said. Not sure why. Ad hominem is a lame logical fallacy in any case.

I have done nothing but discuss the information provided and supply some context. My comments and contribution are made from the point of view of someone who has actually coached multiple successful hour records, who is a successful professional coach, and a pioneer in track aerodynamics field testing, has analysed the impact of different track geometry on rider's lines and performance, provided public information about the issues of hour records and altitude, and has a deep understanding of pacing strategies for both track and road time trialling (and triathon), including development of sophisticated modelling tested on riders at all levels of performance (pro-tour to club riders). I wrote about it last decade. Discussion paper is probably online somewhere. People can PM me if interested.

I have not made a personal remark about you at any time, nor have I sought to question your experience, knowledge, understanding or professionalism. So who is doing the trolling?
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

07 May 2015 02:21

Shame wrote:

And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends. :)


Of course he is. Thanks for joining my discussion.


This made me laugh. Since when has this thread been "YOUR" discussion?
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Re: Hour Record Rules Revisted/Revised

08 May 2015 13:19

Shame wrote:
Anyway, here's Brad last week.

Image

Yes, I noticed that too. Riding a UKSI bike in London
but the previous picture from Manchester showed
what appeared to be a modified Il Bolide.

The bar extensions on the UKSI have much more
upturn than he has used previously.
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