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Disc Brakes

Skinny tyres, drop handlebars and mud. Lots of mud.

Moderator: Eshnar

22 Aug 2010 00:29

Master50 wrote:As soon as a disc equipped CX bike shows up at 6.8 kilos the flood gate will open.
1.3.019 b) Weight The weight of the bicycle cannot be less than 6.8 kilograms.

This rule applies to road, track and cx bikes


I don't know if the weight is as important as your post implies.

I mean, trawl your way through the various tech pages on the current and archived CN site and look at the weights of the various top pros' bikes that are listed there. They're not in the same "weight weenies" game as roadies are. For example, look at Nys' Colnago from a few years back as a classic for this - running a scungy old San Marco saddle and an Ultegra seat post. Could you imagine his equivalent in the road peleton doing that??? (On a personal note, I was surprised to see that my sub-$2k personalised Cannondale was only about 700g heavier than Jeremy Powers' same size pro team rig. Once I swap the fork for the WCS full carbon I got last year, the only real weight difference will be his carbon wheels - which is going to stay a difference for a long time ...)

Since the weight penalty for a disc bike doesn't need to be that great, I think that the determining factors for their adoption will come from other quarters - including the nature of courses (I can see them being much more use in a European mud fest or a snow race than a dry North American course for example) ... and of course commercial factors ...

And of course these comments don't apply outside of pro racing - where I reckon that the relative proportions of "weight weenies", "trendies" and "flat earth society members" will be the determining factor on take up rates ... ;)
kiwirider
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22 Aug 2010 06:46

RDV4ROUBAIX wrote:No, but we were saying the same thing back in the 90's when disk for MTB became available, now it's the standard.


Looks like a mtb comparison. Comparing mtb market segment with 'cross segment. How is that not a comparison? You aren't the only one doing it. It's going to sell *lots* of disc equipped bikes starting next season. (2011/2012) But it's still bad reasoning.

BTW, I agree with the rest of the comment. The first part is a major pet peeve of mine.
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22 Aug 2010 16:17

DirtyWorks wrote:Looks like a mtb comparison. Comparing mtb market segment with 'cross segment. How is that not a comparison? You aren't the only one doing it. It's going to sell *lots* of disc equipped bikes starting next season. (2011/2012) But it's still bad reasoning.

BTW, I agree with the rest of the comment. The first part is a major pet peeve of mine.


"Bad reasoning"? :rolleyes: Dude, you need to step back and take a deep breath. I was referring to progression in tech available to us, not making a comparison in disciplines at all. Question was asked: Does CX really need that much stopping power? No, but there's more to it than just stopping power. Does everybody need a disk brake system on their bikes just because all the pros will eventually all be riding them? Heck no, I'm crazy, but not insane. ;)

Also keep in mind that some comparisons are unavoidable. CX, and eventually road are going to be all disk equipped, and this tech is directly taken from MTB. Many new touring bikes are adopting disk, and even some hybrids now all thanks to that dirty renegade MTB posse. In 1997 MTB'ers were all saying "don't need that much power, disk systems are too heavy", same thing that's happening now with CX. Why such confusion and irritation in response to a very general statement I made? have no idea. We're talking about disk brakes, yes?
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23 Aug 2010 00:44

RDV4ROUBAIX wrote:"Bad reasoning"? :rolleyes: Dude, you need to step back and take a deep breath. ... Why such confusion and irritation in response to a very general statement I made? have no idea. We're talking about disk brakes, yes?


RDV - give your fingers a break ... the same argument has come from the same quarter throughout this thread - and it hasn't got any more convincing over those posts. I'm trying to decide if they're a clever troll or just a dogmatic **** ...

Dirtyworks - if I've misjudged you, here's your chance to prove me wrong. Tell us what level of experience you've had with racing cross and racing or riding disc equipped cross bikes to be able to make your comments - rather than just the bald and dogmatic statements that you come up with at the moment. I'm more than happy to apologise for my characterisation and accept your arguments if you can convince me - but take it as read that you're not even off the starting line at the moment ...
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23 Aug 2010 12:37

DirtyWorks wrote:Looks like a mtb comparison. Comparing mtb market segment with 'cross segment. How is that not a comparison? You aren't the only one doing it. It's going to sell *lots* of disc equipped bikes starting next season. (2011/2012) But it's still bad reasoning.

BTW, I agree with the rest of the comment. The first part is a major pet peeve of mine.


You still haven't explained satisfactorily what is actually wrong with the MTB comparison. Essentially every braked wheel, whether in any form of motorsport, aircraft, or bicycle (except for 'cross and road racing) is braked by a hydraulic disc. Cyclocross is much, much closer to XC MTB than XC MTB is to Formula 1. You're just not that special:confused:
dsut4392
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23 Aug 2010 16:13

I'm going to address a tech question that really isn't a comparison of MTB and CX, hopefully nobody's head explodes. I do believe that there are no hydraulic disk systems that work with road levers due to them being a much longer throw than an MTB lever, and where do you put the master cylinder?

Correct me if I'm wrong, all the new CX bikes I'm seeing are running mechanical disk. Cheaper, lighter.
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23 Aug 2010 17:36

RDV4ROUBAIX wrote:I'm going to address a tech question that really isn't a comparison of MTB and CX, hopefully nobody's head explodes. I do believe that there are no hydraulic disk systems that work with road levers due to them being a much longer throw than an MTB lever, and where do you put the master cylinder?

Correct me if I'm wrong, all the new CX bikes I'm seeing are running mechanical disk. Cheaper, lighter.


I've only seen mechanical discs running on cx bikes too. haven't heard of/seen a hydraulic yet.

i guess you could run them on a single speed/downtube shifter/bar end shifter with the brake levers on the tops though it would take some getting used to. i would imagine that braking on the tops alone would compromise your ability to ride the fastest line on a lot of courses too.
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23 Aug 2010 19:36

dsut4392 wrote:You still haven't explained satisfactorily what is actually wrong with the MTB comparison.


In the simplest terms possible, the course profiles are so different there is no good comparison between 'cross and mtb.

Please don't generalize braking and then apply your generalization to 'cross. It's more poor reasoning.
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23 Aug 2010 20:42

DirtyWorks wrote:In the simplest terms possible, the course profiles are so different there is no good comparison between 'cross and mtb.

Please don't generalize braking and then apply your generalization to 'cross. It's more poor reasoning.


i think that you need to be more specific about the braking conditions to which you refer. whilst it is correct to say that the typical cross course profile does not have sustained downhill sections where the increased braking power delivered by disks in mtb is of benefit, both mtb and cross take place significantly off road.

in these conditions rim brakes may offer a significant performance disadvantage when measured against disc brakes. this disadvantage - where mud is able to build around cantilever brakes from the tyre clearances affecting both braking performance and bike weight - should be seriously considered if conditions dictate that they are a factor. in wet/muddy (normal????) conditions, the extra weight of discs in a racers consideration of bike set up should be carefully weighed against the performance advantages.

for a privateer with one bike, this may swing the choice of frame towards a disc-equipped model - understanding of course that the current weight of discs will likely be a racing disadvantage in the early, drier part of the season.

of course, if you're a pro, you ride what you're told to ride and have the luxury of a pit crew to hand up a nice clean bike every lap.

both sides of the discussion would be served well by making reasoned specific arguments and avoiding specious generalisations.
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23 Aug 2010 21:01

kiwirider wrote:
Dirtyworks - if I've misjudged you, here's your chance to prove me wrong. Tell us what level of experience you've had with racing cross and racing or riding disc equipped cross bikes to be able to make your comments ...


Kiwirider: 'Cross rider for 20 years. I don't race any more. When I did, 'cross races were very few and very far apart. The fastest I ever got was 'very fast club-dude.' I still train with racers. I beat the local fashionistas at the training rides on something similar to this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230483398135

25 years of mountain biking with my racing years in the past. I still ride and ride hard. The sweetest beat-downs are the carbon multi-pivot fashionistas versus me and my 10+ year-old gear.

I give up though. Despite the fact I'll be beating a couple people on the latest and greatest disc brake bikes next year. The flawed reasoning of many is no match for me. Enjoy your disc brakes.
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24 Aug 2010 02:35

DirtyWorks wrote:Enjoy your disc brakes.


We will. Poor and flawed reasoning, weak arguments and all. :p
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24 Aug 2010 23:04

DirtyWorks wrote:Kiwirider: 'Cross rider for 20 years. I don't race any more. When I did, 'cross races were very few and very far apart. The fastest I ever got was 'very fast club-dude.' I still train with racers. I beat the local fashionistas at the training rides on something similar to this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230483398135
.


Man I dig that Phillipe!
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24 Aug 2010 23:22

TexPat wrote:Man I dig that Phillipe!


Hey, shouldn't you be selling people new carbon fibre, disk equipped cross bikes - or at least organising next year's cross series - instead of drooling over old steelies??? :D
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24 Aug 2010 23:30

DirtyWorks wrote:Kiwirider: 'Cross rider for 20 years. I don't race any more. When I did, 'cross races were very few and very far apart. The fastest I ever got was 'very fast club-dude.' I still train with racers. I beat the local fashionistas at the training rides on something similar to this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230483398135

25 years of mountain biking with my racing years in the past. I still ride and ride hard. The sweetest beat-downs are the carbon multi-pivot fashionistas versus me and my 10+ year-old gear.

I give up though. Despite the fact I'll be beating a couple people on the latest and greatest disc brake bikes next year. The flawed reasoning of many is no match for me. Enjoy your disc brakes.


Most interesting thing about your background is that it nicely mirrors my buddy who has the disk equipped Salsa! Seriously, apart from the fact that he has updated his bikes from a similar sort of era as yours - and the fact that he got to be a level or so "higher" in his palmares than you - you guys could be twins!

His attitude was very similar to yours - "my old stuff works well and I can make gear heads suffer, so why change?". A few rides on new kit and he made the move. He only ended up on a disk equipped crosser because he hated the carbon fork induced shudder with standard brakes - something he never got on his old Concorde (beautiful bike in PDM team colours).

One thing that hasn't changed with his upgrading kit - and a credo that I hold to equally - is his belief that all the techy stuff in the world comes second to a good pair of legs and good race sense ... but that some techy stuff can help you get the best out of those two things. (And anyone who's read some of my other posts on here - such as slamming Di2, Campag 11 and SRAM XX - knows that I've got a seriously skeptical attitude to new tech ... Change doesn't always equal progress ...)

So, really a long way of saying "good on you for enjoying riding classic kit" and "open your mind ... try some of the new stuff - who knows, you may actually find that you get to like it and that it makes your riding more fun"! :)
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25 Aug 2010 09:18

DirtyWorks wrote:In the simplest terms possible, the course profiles are so different there is no good comparison between 'cross and mtb.

Please don't generalize braking and then apply your generalization to 'cross. It's more poor reasoning.


I'm sorry, but performance of braking systems is something that can be generalised. The use case of any brake is braking the wheel, not "CX" or MTB" specific. For the purpose of braking a wheel [basically any wheel which is in contact with the elements], hydraulic disc braking simply is superior, for the myriad reasons which have been mentioned, none of which you have even attempted to refute.

You bleat about "poor reasoning", yet your argument consists of nothing more than "cantis should be good enough for anyone for CX, because CX isn't braking intensive".

While I have never disgreed with the argument that "cantis are good enough [for CX] most of the time", if it's necessary to have any sort of brake at all to ride CX, you may as well have a better brake than a worse one.
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14 Sep 2010 17:52

the good news is perhaps we will see companies develop Hydro technology for drop levers and STI
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14 Sep 2010 17:58

now this is interesting

http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology/project68.html

Canyon is the first manufacturer in the world to develop a road race bike which features hydraulic disc brakes that are controlled by the brake/shift levers
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14 Oct 2010 16:18

User avatar Boeing
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01 Nov 2010 15:10

I know that this thread has sat idle long enough to be able to be pronounced dead, but I thought that I'd offer a couple of comments following my first race on a disc equipped cross bike yesterday.

Situation was that I ended up with a mechanical just before the start of the race that meant that I ended up borrowing my buddy's "pit bike". It's a Salsa Las Cruces with SRAM and Avid 5 cable discs. For good measure, it's a size too big for me, I ride Campag normally and his brakes are "back to front" (I ride RH front/LH back). Oh, and we'd just had our first snow of the year, but it was warming up, so we were riding a gorgeous combination of slush and mud. So, that's probably enough stacked against the bike to mean that it was pretty much starting 10 points down ... :)

Anyhow, I have to say that, after that one race, I am completely converted and am waiting excitedly for the new offering of disc equipped cross frames. Initially, I was about set to send myself over the bars - the braking was that much stronger than what I was used to (Tektro CR720s). After a while, I found that the confidence of knowing that the braking was always there meant that I could hammer that much more into corners and block pass quite easily - which was good, because the nature of the course meant that there were limited opportunities to pass on the straights until the course cut up a bit and the racing line widened.

We also had a lovely little off camber corner on the toboggan hill that dropped steeply into a sharp right hand corner. Again the discs were great, as I knew that I could grab what I needed at the bottom rather than having to trail brake down it. Same sort of thing happened on a couple of u-turns around trees and the like - was great to be able to come in with speed, grab some back brake and get a bit of slip around the corner.

All in all, while I was impressed with the discs when we did a bike swap in training, after this race I'm now a complete convert. The experience was very much like when I changed from a v-brake to disc equiped MTB - one ride and you are happy to have made the change.

I will say to those people who are making comments about wanting hydraulic discs - don't bother. The improvement in braking that you get and the nature of cross racing mean that, in my opinion, cable discs will do you fine. And small rotors are pretty much all that you need - I can't remember for sure, but am pretty certain that my buddy has 140's on both ends.
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15 Mar 2011 05:02

kiwirider wrote:I know that this thread has sat idle long enough to be able to be pronounced dead, but I thought that I'd offer a couple of comments following my first race on a disc equipped cross bike yesterday.

Situation was that I ended up with a mechanical just before the start of the race that meant that I ended up borrowing my buddy's "pit bike". It's a Salsa Las Cruces with SRAM and Avid 5 cable discs. For good measure, it's a size too big for me, I ride Campag normally and his brakes are "back to front" (I ride RH front/LH back). Oh, and we'd just had our first snow of the year, but it was warming up, so we were riding a gorgeous combination of slush and mud. So, that's probably enough stacked against the bike to mean that it was pretty much starting 10 points down ... :)

Anyhow, I have to say that, after that one race, I am completely converted and am waiting excitedly for the new offering of disc equipped cross frames. Initially, I was about set to send myself over the bars - the braking was that much stronger than what I was used to (Tektro CR720s). After a while, I found that the confidence of knowing that the braking was always there meant that I could hammer that much more into corners and block pass quite easily - which was good, because the nature of the course meant that there were limited opportunities to pass on the straights until the course cut up a bit and the racing line widened.

We also had a lovely little off camber corner on the toboggan hill that dropped steeply into a sharp right hand corner. Again the discs were great, as I knew that I could grab what I needed at the bottom rather than having to trail brake down it. Same sort of thing happened on a couple of u-turns around trees and the like - was great to be able to come in with speed, grab some back brake and get a bit of slip around the corner.

All in all, while I was impressed with the discs when we did a bike swap in training, after this race I'm now a complete convert. The experience was very much like when I changed from a v-brake to disc equiped MTB - one ride and you are happy to have made the change.

I will say to those people who are making comments about wanting hydraulic discs - don't bother. The improvement in braking that you get and the nature of cross racing mean that, in my opinion, cable discs will do you fine. And small rotors are pretty much all that you need - I can't remember for sure, but am pretty certain that my buddy has 140's on both ends.


From the lack of replies to this post, I take it that this is the final word on the canti vs. disc brake in CX argument? Disc brakes are the future and canti brakes will disappear until hipsters rediscover them and retrofit their fixies?
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