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Giant Warranty Issue

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Of warranty and posting.

21 Jun 2009 17:42

The warranty departments of several manufacturers operate under a sort of paradox. Find a crack in the weld of a 8 year old frame? Viola, warranty replacement. Have a catastrophic structural failure? Sorry chap. It sometimes appears the greater the likelihood of widespread liability for serious injury, the more closed mouthed and stand-offish the manufacturers become.

In the immediate instance, the failure seems quite clearly caused by the crash and not the other way around. A shrewd consumer will note that a warranty does not protect expectations of durability, but only manufacturing or design defects. It is entirely possible that the fork in this instance performed according to the design.

This does not mean, however, that the consumer must remain tight lipped about a product failure. Giant's revocation of their offer to replace the fork based on the publication of the failure both unprofessional and illogical. More so are the several posts demonizing the rider for tarnishing the Giant brand.

Too many product defects, design flaws and weaknesses are kept secret from the customer. In this instance the rider does not suggest that Giant caused his injury, or even that his fork was necessarily defective, only that it did not perform to his expectations. Consumers are entitled to know the experiences of fellow riders in order to make sound decisions about products. There may be riders out there who prioritize durability over light weight, or are particularly crash prone. This post helps them understand that Giant is not for them.

As for the harm to the brand there are only two potential issues. First, that posting the failure tarnishes the brands reputation. Reputation for what? Durability during a crash? If that is the case than the reputation may not be warranted. Second, is the brands reputation for customer care and service. This might be a greater concern, but again, when you purchase a bike, you purchase the warranty as well this merely gives other riders an understanding of what sorts of things are covered under Giant's warranty.

Perhaps the best thing to be gained from increased transparency and candor is to adjust consumer expectations of product performance. Consumers, I think, assume failures are rare occurrences and that most bike equipment is unusually strong. Bicycle marketing does their fair share to perpetuate these exaggerated expectations by touting ever increasing strength to weight ratios of their next best frame material.

As anyone in the bike biz knows such expectations are undeserved. Failures occur frequently, especially with top of the line, ultra light equipment. Indeed, if someone were to catalog every product failure people would see not one brand's incompetence, but the simple fact that everything breaks sometimes.
cjeder
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21 Jun 2009 22:34

:rolleyes:In defence of the defence. I am not taking any position on the actual nature of the fork, in that, I do not know if it had a defect or poor design. From the start have said that given the description of the crash it seem plausible that this was an unnecessary or very unlikely failure. I do not have any reason, to doubt the story from iceman as there is no real motivation to lie here. I do, given the circumstances, remain skeptical about the quality of the fork. This is skepticism and not a conclusion. Many folks here have been very quick to condemn iceman as a lier, fool, and whiner. This is really jumping to conclusions and being less than civil.

Being skeptical about his claims is good and asking him to furnish more details is good. To just assume that this is not possible under the given circumstances is really unfounded and not skepticism but cynicism and closed mindedness. To assume that the fork must have been good or bad is also nonsense. We do not know for sure, we can only hypothesize based on the information given. Anecdotes and lack of similar events do not constitute proof of any kind.

To the question of Giant's role in this I think that they are within their legal rights to deny him anything, and he has agreed that this is the case. From a customer service stand point they have really messed this up. A replacement fork at cost would have resolved this, cost giant nothing and saved a customer and all the of bad press that this forum has seemed to produce.

Here is a general question. What do you think about the R-sys failure as reported by the journalist from velonews? He claims to be JRA and and Mavic claims that this type of failure is not possible. No doubt that they tested the hell out of those wheels and put them through a beating before the re-release. Yet a wheel failed, seemingly out of the blue. Is this possible? Who is right? I think that the point is that a wheel or any component should be made to reduce the catastrophic failure mode as much as possible.
Cheers...Daryl

-Life is too important to be taken seriously-
User avatar Black Dog
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Ask and you shall receive

21 Jun 2009 23:29

fiftyfour eleven wrote:Just another case of JRA!

What else did you subject the bike too prior to the "crash", ever park it into a garage whilst still attached to the roof of your car maybe?? Little chance you will ever admit to anything like that.

Basically mate you are full of it, carbon forks on bikes of that quality do not simply break.

And to all the other so called experts lining up to rag Giant, you are most likely riding a product manufactured by them!


I could not resist after seeing the following. No offense fiftyfour eleven. And by the way this is their top end fork.


WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer product. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed.

Name of Product: 2009 model year TCR Advanced SL and SL (ISP) Bicycles and Frames

Units: About 1,000

Importer: Giant Bicycle, of Newbury Park, Calif.

Hazard: The density of the steerer tubes can cause the forks to crack and break, posing a fall hazard to the consumer.

Incidents/Injuries: Giant Bicycle has received one report of the fork cracking with no reported injuries.

Description: This recall involves 2009 TCR Advanced SL Team, SL 0, SL 1, SL 2, and SL (ISP) model bicycles and frames in silver, charcoal, blue and red. The words "Giant" and "TCR Advanced SL" are printed on the frame. Steerer tubes with "B", "N" or "P" at the end of the serial number are not included in this recall. Other "TCR" model bicycles are not included in the recall.

Sold by: Authorized Giant Bicycle dealers nationwide from August 2008 through December 2008 for between $3,300 and $7,500.

Manufactured in: Taiwan

Remedy: Consumers should stop riding these bicycles immediately and contact an authorized Giant Bicycle dealer for a free inspection and replacement fork.

Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Giant Bicycle toll-free at (866) 458-2555 between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. PT Monday through Friday, or visit the firm's Web site at http://www.giant-bicycles.com
Cheers...Daryl

-Life is too important to be taken seriously-
User avatar Black Dog
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24 Jun 2009 15:19

cjeder wrote:The warranty departments of several manufacturers operate under a sort of paradox. Find a crack in the weld of a 8 year old frame? Viola, warranty replacement. Have a catastrophic structural failure? Sorry chap. It sometimes appears the greater the likelihood of widespread liability for serious injury, the more closed mouthed and stand-offish the manufacturers become.

In the immediate instance, the failure seems quite clearly caused by the crash and not the other way around. A shrewd consumer will note that a warranty does not protect expectations of durability, but only manufacturing or design defects. It is entirely possible that the fork in this instance performed according to the design.

This does not mean, however, that the consumer must remain tight lipped about a product failure. Giant's revocation of their offer to replace the fork based on the publication of the failure both unprofessional and illogical. More so are the several posts demonizing the rider for tarnishing the Giant brand.

Too many product defects, design flaws and weaknesses are kept secret from the customer. In this instance the rider does not suggest that Giant caused his injury, or even that his fork was necessarily defective, only that it did not perform to his expectations. Consumers are entitled to know the experiences of fellow riders in order to make sound decisions about products. There may be riders out there who prioritize durability over light weight, or are particularly crash prone. This post helps them understand that Giant is not for them.


Yeah I definately agree with you on these points. Seems very puzzling that a consumer/owner of a product is not able to air his/her concerns about a product/the treatment he/she received during the complaint process.

To be honest, I'm not too bitter about this saga. I'm just looking forward to riding again and if Giant/any other manufacturer wishes to act in this way, well that's their prerogative, and good luck to them. Just saying that despite everything that's happened, i'm not too bitter about it all, i mean this is hardly that important in the scope of things. I'm just looking forward to start riding again and enjoy what I like doing.


Black Dog wrote::rolleyes:In defence of the defence. I am not taking any position on the actual nature of the fork, in that, I do not know if it had a defect or poor design. From the start have said that given the description of the crash it seem plausible that this was an unnecessary or very unlikely failure. I do not have any reason, to doubt the story from iceman as there is no real motivation to lie here. I do, given the circumstances, remain skeptical about the quality of the fork. This is skepticism and not a conclusion. Many folks here have been very quick to condemn iceman as a lier, fool, and whiner. This is really jumping to conclusions and being less than civil.

Being skeptical about his claims is good and asking him to furnish more details is good. To just assume that this is not possible under the given circumstances is really unfounded and not skepticism but cynicism and closed mindedness. To assume that the fork must have been good or bad is also nonsense. We do not know for sure, we can only hypothesize based on the information given. Anecdotes and lack of similar events do not constitute proof of any kind.

To the question of Giant's role in this I think that they are within their legal rights to deny him anything, and he has agreed that this is the case. From a customer service stand point they have really messed this up. A replacement fork at cost would have resolved this, cost giant nothing and saved a customer and all the of bad press that this forum has seemed to produce.


Thanks for your kind words Black Dog. I know that nothing will change as to how Giant will deal with their customers. But at least people are aware of what's happened and at least they can except what may happen if they are unlucky enough to suffer a similar scenario. I don't agree with how they deal with customers, but hey that's their decision to make, and they can deal with the consequences/benefits as they see fit.

More often than not though, people are likely to be in argument over decisions over customer service and how they are dealt with rather than the nature of the equipment itself.

fiftyfour eleven wrote:Oh dear, poor Black Dog seems to be as confused as his hubbard mate Iceman. Certainly things break no matter who makes them, but for a fork to break in roughly the same spot on both blades all on it's own is still BS.

If there was a manufacturing or design fault with this model bike it most certainly would have been picked up by now.

Again I wll suggest that Mr Iceman did do something to his forks but his lack of exprience and possible, mechanical ability, he just didn't realise the damage he was causing nor the risk he was putting himself into.


Yes, if there was a manufacturing fault, I certainly hope it would have been picked up by now. But that's not to say there wasn't a weakness with the fork. But I'm not going to go and argue the strength of the fork because it'll just turn nasty again.

As has been stated before, just because something hasn't happened before does not mean it won't happen or can't happen in the future.

cjeder wrote:Consumers are entitled to know the experiences of fellow riders in order to make sound decisions about products. There may be riders out there who prioritize durability over light weight, or are particularly crash prone. This post helps them understand that Giant is not for them.


That pretty much summed it up for me.
iceman2321
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10 Jul 2009 04:33

iceman2321 wrote:...What a joke.
Shows how much Giant cares about their customers, ie none whatsoever.
Apparently I have 'burnt' them and so I deserve nothing.
-Iceman

I saw this thread when i was reading about stage 6 of the TDF and i have to step forward & defend Giant. While you obviously had a real problem with them, some of us have had nothing but good experiences with the brand.
I know a bike shop owner & racer who hung up his Litespeed Ultimate & started racing on a Giant TCR which he purchased (dealer cost of course).

Now to be fair i was on a team that Giant sponsored and we got our frames at cost. but 8 years later i am still riding Giant exclusively. I find them to be a great handling, durable bike.

I can tell you from my experience most bicycle companies would not have had an answer much different than what you received. Racing the bike is perceived as abuse, I know that is what the bike is designed for but think of the alternative. Every racer would get crash replacements how much would that add to the cost of every frame Giant sells? That would be ridiculous, but in reality that is what you were asking for.

I had a GT fold up on me in a race crash and they were nice enough to overlook the fact i was racing and gave me a replacement at cost. This was back in the early 90's and i shelled out over 900 dollars then.

I had a 1987 Kestrel 4000 which was very expensive, the fork crown (aluminum back then)seprated from the legs on a descent. that was fun:rolleyes: they knew it was a design flaw and i got one of their new carbon forks. But if it had happened in a race i am sure they would have stiffed me because i had to pay 150 to get the fork which was refunded when their rep saw it was not caused by a crash.

I could go on & on about other companies but let me tell you the response is always the same, you raced it you crashed it you pay.
runninboy
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Iceman

11 Jul 2009 03:06

While you are having a whinge, you may want to speak to your tiler because there is a nasty looking crack in your floor. Might wanna get that looked at before the ground opens up and you fall in.

idiot:confused:
dirtywednesday
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Broken forks and the truth

11 Jul 2009 04:00

Iceman I think you might need to tell the truth. Lets be honest, you didnt crash your bike at 30km/hr or whatever you claim did you now. Lets be honest, yes you or your car maybe?? was doing 30km/hr when with your bike on the roof of said car hit your bike into something overhead?? how am I doing so far??

You then post on an internet forum bleating about how a bicycle company wont give you a free pair of forks to cover your stupidity, you have probably complained to anybody who will listen, your local bike shop probably tried to help, hell Giant probably tried to help. I have owned Giants in the past, stil own one although it is in pieces atm. No I didnt break it. Fair chance you have burnt all/any bridges you may have had in getting any help from any of the above.

You get some support from some other Giant hating self appointed bike experts on how bad Giant bicycles are and how they arent gonna buy another one, you yourself give advice to any of these idiots on never buying another Giant again yada yada yada.................

I didnt even bother reading past the first few posts and your photos. How about showing all of the bike, and maybe your roofrack and a close up of your cars roof eh?

rant over
uberbiker
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12 Jul 2009 02:07

uberbiker wrote:Iceman I think you might need to tell the truth. Lets be honest, you didnt crash your bike at 30km/hr or whatever you claim did you now. Lets be honest, yes you or your car maybe?? was doing 30km/hr when with your bike on the roof of said car hit your bike into something overhead?? how am I doing so far??


It sure looks like that, however i also t boned a car years ago and my bike looked almost exactly like that.
People and their little stories end up costing the rest of us, those stupid little nubs on my front fork because someone doesn't know how to tighten a skewer. Decals all over my bike because someone wanted to sue, now my frame costs 10 times as much.
Liars & cheaters should be shot as they take money out of all our pockets

:mad::mad::mad:
runninboy
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12 Jul 2009 02:28

[quote="cjeder"]

In the immediate instance, the failure seems quite clearly caused by the crash and not the other way around. A shrewd consumer will note that a warranty does not protect expectations of durability, but only manufacturing or design defects. It is entirely possible that the fork in this instance performed according to the design.

This does not mean, however, that the consumer must remain tight lipped about a product failure. Giant's revocation of their offer to replace the fork based on the publication of the failure both unprofessional and illogical. More so are the several posts demonizing the rider for tarnishing the Giant brand.

QUOTE]

Ok so let me get this straight, even though it is pretty apparent the OP is lying that the damage was caused by the crash. You are MORE concerned about people like me who post to defend a brand that we like & have good experience with against someone who is trying to get something he does not deserve. Actions such as his cost Honest people their hard earned money, why wouldn't i complain? I hate when companies cheat people, but it is just as exasperating when people cheat companies.
I don't think Giant is a benevolent organization but they don't deserve to be skewered for refusing for a claim that No other bicycle manufacturer would honour. Giant sponsors alot of local teams & racing in addition to their Pro teams, i got a bike at cost years ago and have purchased 4 more Giants without sponsorship since. Simply because they perform better and are more durable than my previous 3 custom frames and a couple other high end off the shelf bikes. When someone does something i like i defend them.
sorry if that offends you cjeder
runninboy
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13 Jul 2009 17:37

dirtywednesday wrote:While you are having a whinge, you may want to speak to your tiler because there is a nasty looking crack in your floor. Might wanna get that looked at before the ground opens up and you fall in.

idiot:confused:

lol. this reads I sell giant bikes. You are hurting my business.
User avatar RightWingNutJob
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14 Jul 2009 09:05

RightWingNutJob wrote:lol. this reads I sell giant bikes. You are hurting my business.


ahhhhh no!:):):)

Im a PT Sherlock

nice guess though........................

carry on
uberbiker
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25 Jul 2009 15:50

I was just planning to forget all this and so that is the reason I haven't posted for so long, but I felt I needed to correct a few things that simply aren't true.

runninboy wrote:I saw this thread when i was reading about stage 6 of the TDF and i have to step forward & defend Giant. While you obviously had a real problem with them, some of us have had nothing but good experiences with the brand.

I know a bike shop owner & racer who hung up his Litespeed Ultimate & started racing on a Giant TCR which he purchased (dealer cost of course).

I could go on & on about other companies but let me tell you the response is always the same, you raced it you crashed it you pay.


I maintain that it's not the product that I have a problem with - it's the way they dealt with my situation. I am glad you have had a good experience with Giant because I'm definitely not saying that this cannot occur (I'm sure many others have had positive experiences with Giant). But just because you have had a good experience does not mean everyone else will. Giant has worked for you, in this case they haven't worked for me.

uberbiker wrote:Iceman I think you might need to tell the truth. Lets be honest, you didnt crash your bike at 30km/hr or whatever you claim did you now. Lets be honest, yes you or your car maybe?? was doing 30km/hr when with your bike on the roof of said car hit your bike into something overhead?? how am I doing so far??

You get some support from some other Giant hating self appointed bike experts on how bad Giant bicycles are and how they arent gonna buy another one, you yourself give advice to any of these idiots on never buying another Giant again yada yada yada.................

I didnt even bother reading past the first few posts and your photos. How about showing all of the bike, and maybe your roofrack and a close up of your cars roof eh?


Let's be honest here? Because it's so clear that you know that happened. How about you ask the two people walking down the road when I had my accident and the two cars that slowed down after I crashed and asked if i needed help. How about asking my dentist about the damage to my teeth and the doctors/nurses at the ED if they think my injuries were a result of self-harm? How about asking the guys at the bike shop if they thought i was a bit of an emo and ripped off quite a bit of skin and my chin just so i can get a free set of forks off them/the manufacturer.

But hey, it totally makes sense to spend $700 on medical bills, have a 4 week lay off, just so I can rip into a large global-national company and try stinge a free set of forks off them. How am I doing so far?

This is a public forum and granted you can have your opinion, but I have mine as well. As for the photos of my car and roofracks? They are about as real as the toothfairy :p

runninboy wrote:It sure looks like that, however i also t boned a car years ago and my bike looked almost exactly like that. People and their little stories end up costing the rest of us, those stupid little nubs on my front fork because someone doesn't know how to tighten a skewer. Decals all over my bike because someone wanted to sue, now my frame costs 10 times as much.
Liars & cheaters should be shot as they take money out of all our pockets

:mad::mad::mad:


I know how to tighten my skewer, I make sure it's on super tight before I go out on every ride. Believe me I despise liars and cheaters as much as you do, and if I didn't think I was in the right here, I wouldn't have brought it to this public forum and wasted your time, and it seems like your anguish as well.


runninboy wrote:Ok so let me get this straight, even though it is pretty apparent the OP is lying that the damage was caused by the crash. You are MORE concerned about people like me who post to defend a brand that we like & have good experience with against someone who is trying to get something he does not deserve. Actions such as his cost Honest people their hard earned money, why wouldn't i complain? I hate when companies cheat people, but it is just as exasperating when people cheat companies.
I don't think Giant is a benevolent organization but they don't deserve to be skewered for refusing for a claim that No other bicycle manufacturer would honour. Giant sponsors alot of local teams & racing in addition to their Pro teams, i got a bike at cost years ago and have purchased 4 more Giants without sponsorship since. Simply because they perform better and are more durable than my previous 3 custom frames and a couple other high end off the shelf bikes. When someone does something i like i defend them.
sorry if that offends you cjeder


As I said, i also despise people that cheat and rip others off. And I would never, ever do that. You talk about honesty and defending people. If you knew what actually happened to me, I think you would think differently. But hey, you can believe what you wish based on what I/others have said. I have no problem with that. But at the same time, I know what happened and I can't lie to myself or others. I agree, I don't think Giant is a benevolent organisation (far from it - they produce some fantastic products) and of course they shouldn't be blamed for something that wasn't their fault, but what they should be blamed for and be held accountable for was the way they dealt with this. In other industries, people that do this no longer have a job.

But saying all this, since it's 'pretty apparent' that I'm lying I guess you won't care what i write/say. But for me, it's important to inform others reading this thread as to what really happened. And if you don't agree and/or think what i write is a load of s--t, then that's fine too. As i've said on many occasions, everyone is free to have their own beliefs/opinions. It's what makes democratic countries such as ours such a great place to live in.

-Iceman
iceman2321
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28 Jul 2009 12:17

being a bike mechanic for over 20years I have seen this type of fork break a number of times .with carbon forks and frames they are made to move in certain directions forward and back to absoreb road shock and no sideways movement for stiffness these forks had a blow from the side possably been twisted aswell .so I agree with giant on this, sounds like a JRA (just riding along) story.and I DONT EVEN LIKE GIANT BIKES!
Ive seen at lest 3 different brands do the same thing.
fatterboy
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Re: GAINT FORK BREAKS...

12 Nov 2016 19:43

robbo85 wrote:Forkin Giants!!

ICEMAN...YOU WERE RIGHT...SAME BIKE SAME FORK FAILURE.

THE LONG TIME RIDER IS IN THE TRAUMA UNIT IN JAX FLA....FROM A FORK FAILURE...GOING DOWN HILL.

NO MARKS ON THE FORK...JUST BROKE IN 2 JUST LIKE YOURS....

SHE IS LUCKY TO BE ALIVE...BROKEN JAW...NO NOSE....3 VEREBARE CRUSHED, 2 RIBS....FACE SURGERY MASSIVE...NO EATING...BEEN IN HOSPITAL A WEEK SO FAR...

THIS WAS A DEFECTIVE FORK...YOURS OR HERS SHOULD NOT HAVE BROKE. GAINT SHOULD HAVE RECALLED IT.

I WOULD POST PICTURES IF I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TOO.
Cycle_rider
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Re: GAINT FORK BREAKS...

15 Nov 2016 13:57

Cycle_rider wrote:
robbo85 wrote:Forkin Giants!!

ICEMAN...YOU WERE RIGHT...SAME BIKE SAME FORK FAILURE.

THE LONG TIME RIDER IS IN THE TRAUMA UNIT IN JAX FLA....FROM A FORK FAILURE...GOING DOWN HILL.

NO MARKS ON THE FORK...JUST BROKE IN 2 JUST LIKE YOURS....

SHE IS LUCKY TO BE ALIVE...BROKEN JAW...NO NOSE....3 VEREBARE CRUSHED, 2 RIBS....FACE SURGERY MASSIVE...NO EATING...BEEN IN HOSPITAL A WEEK SO FAR...

THIS WAS A DEFECTIVE FORK...YOURS OR HERS SHOULD NOT HAVE BROKE. GAINT SHOULD HAVE RECALLED IT.

I WOULD POST PICTURES IF I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TOO.


???7 year old post..
User avatar Bustedknuckle
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Re: GAINT FORK BREAKS...

16 Nov 2016 14:45

Cycle_rider wrote:
robbo85 wrote:Forkin Giants!!

ICEMAN...YOU WERE RIGHT...SAME BIKE SAME FORK FAILURE.

THE LONG TIME RIDER IS IN THE TRAUMA UNIT IN JAX FLA....FROM A FORK FAILURE...GOING DOWN HILL.

NO MARKS ON THE FORK...JUST BROKE IN 2 JUST LIKE YOURS....

SHE IS LUCKY TO BE ALIVE...BROKEN JAW...NO NOSE....3 VEREBARE CRUSHED, 2 RIBS....FACE SURGERY MASSIVE...NO EATING...BEEN IN HOSPITAL A WEEK SO FAR...

THIS WAS A DEFECTIVE FORK...YOURS OR HERS SHOULD NOT HAVE BROKE. GAINT SHOULD HAVE RECALLED IT.

I WOULD POST PICTURES IF I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TOO.

Welcome to the forum! :)

Please take your cap-lock off when you post.

Cheers
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User avatar Irondan
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Re: GAINT FORK BREAKS...

13 Dec 2016 07:03

Bustedknuckle wrote:
Cycle_rider wrote:
robbo85 wrote:Forkin Giants!!

ICEMAN...YOU WERE RIGHT...SAME BIKE SAME FORK FAILURE.

THE LONG TIME RIDER IS IN THE TRAUMA UNIT IN JAX FLA....FROM A FORK FAILURE...GOING DOWN HILL.

NO MARKS ON THE FORK...JUST BROKE IN 2 JUST LIKE YOURS....

SHE IS LUCKY TO BE ALIVE...BROKEN JAW...NO NOSE....3 VEREBARE CRUSHED, 2 RIBS....FACE SURGERY MASSIVE...NO EATING...BEEN IN HOSPITAL A WEEK SO FAR...

THIS WAS A DEFECTIVE FORK...YOURS OR HERS SHOULD NOT HAVE BROKE. GAINT SHOULD HAVE RECALLED IT.

I WOULD POST PICTURES IF I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TOO.


???7 year old post..


Yep it would be handy to get some actual info on what model Giant this poster is talking about
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
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