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Disc brakes on road bikes...

Which tyres for Paris-Roubaix? Whose time trial bike is fastest? Suspension mountain bikes or singlespeeders? Talk equipment here.

28 Dec 2016 23:08

This record has had more plays than Dark Side of the Moon.
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User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

29 Dec 2016 15:24

MWC wrote:Former tech ed here, now at cyclingtips, James Huang...

Disc brakes offer better modulation than rim brakes, meaning it’s easier for the rider to precisely meter out exactly how much clamping power is generated. Peak stopping power occurs just before the point of lock-up and disc-equipped bikes are better equipped to flirt with that edge without crossing over. Disc brake power also tends to be more linear and predictable than on rim brakes, and it’s far more consistent in varying weather conditions, especially when compared with using rim brakes on carbon rims – a combination that yields notoriously poor performance in the wet and yet is also prone to overheating when dry.


I know he's too smart to chime in here anymore, but dang James, after 20 years of disc brakes ya'd think the debate would be over by now. :rolleyes:




20 years....yet it is still not the pros choice for racing. hmmmm :rolleyes:

Grabbing a handful of brake in an instant is going to see lots more over their handlebars with discs than before. Not going to be pretty.
User avatar Benotti69
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Re: Re:

29 Dec 2016 15:57

Benotti69 wrote:
20 years....yet it is still not the pros choice for racing. hmmmm :rolleyes:


Um, excuse me, it is for mtb and cross. You think precious roadies are going to be exempt for much longer?

Grabbing a handful of brake in an instant is going to see lots more over their handlebars with discs than before. Not going to be pretty.


What's going on with you Benotti69, did you enter some bet how badly you could flog this dead horse? Ah, the good old disc brakes will make you OTB scary story, yet another old wives' tale brought up at least a dozen times on this thread. Once again, did the thousands of people that purchased a road disc bike over the last few years all of a sudden forget how to ride because of better brakes? You have any reports of a mass OTB phenomenon by riders making the switch from rim to disc?
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30 Dec 2016 16:11

So, in order to keep up with new technology, I will (at an expense I'd rather not endure) buy a new disc compatible bike
and learn the skills of how to maintain the discs.
User avatar maanderx
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30 Dec 2016 19:18

Hmmmm... Oh, you mean just like understanding your new smart phone... I see your point... it is a considerable challenge.
User avatar VeloFidelis
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Re:

31 Dec 2016 10:48

Master50 wrote:Disk brakes are a real solution to the heat problem on carbon clinchers. It completely solves the overheated rim problem.


Yes, and this is a better reason to make a switch to disc brakes (hydraulic only) than the braking capabilities on road bikes themselves.
Felice Gimondi
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2016 10:53

MWC wrote:
Felice Gimondi wrote:I'm 176cm and my weight is 65kg, still can't get the CX brakes to block at all times, even mechanical disc brakes, cause they're simply not powefull enough on all types of surfaces. My hydraulic however, they can and also my rim brakes on my road bike.


I weigh 14kg more than you and could lock up every mechanical disc I've ever had on a CX bike. How is it possible that you, much lighter, cannot? Oh, I remember, your physics are a little different than normal. My bad. :o

I'm guessing you don't ride really hard.

Modulating the brakes has lot's to do with analysing and feeling the effect your braking has, and at higher speeds the human perception is just not good enough.


Maybe you shouldn't ride down hills. Just a suggestion. ;)


Well, growing up in a club producing 2010 road WC and riding just as fast as him downhill, I would beg to differ.
Felice Gimondi
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2016 11:00

MWC wrote:
Felice Gimondi wrote:"Disc brakes allow you to brake later and adjust speed into a really bad section"

If your existing road bike brakes already will block the wheels, or even better, brake just up to the point before blocking, there are no improvements in braking capabilities. If you ride on a bike with or without disc brakes, it is the same amount of energy one has to dispose with, if that energy is not possible to get rid off on a shorter distance because of tire friction being the limiting factor, disc brakes will not shorten the braking distance. That's only physics.


I did a little experiment this year. Went back and re-rode most of the long technical descents where I hold KOM's and PR's on Strava with the disc equipped bike, but on my rim brake bike with every intention of making a result on these sections. Guess what happened, no KOM's and no PR's. I even overshot a really tight corner over the yellow line, one that I remember railing on the other bike. I can brake much later into corners with disc, in turn I exit faster. I also have better control and modulation throughout the braking sections at speed. By your definition(?) of physics the combination of disc and road tires I don't have any advantage because you claim that the limiting factor is tire grip. You don't realize for whatever reason that this debate was over years ago? Nobody is still trying to figure out why disc brakes work better than rim brakes. The only problem roadies have with it is that is messes up their traditional aesthetic. So what is your intention by hammering this tire friction thing to death? Doesn't make any sense.

How is it that your physics doesn't add up with everybody else's physics? If what you're saying is true every shop is going to have to pull their 2017 road disc models off the floor, tomorrow! And all the manufacturers are going to have to pay for making false claims for 20 years. Let's see if they got your warning, backed up by physics of course. :lol:


One cannot argue against the fact that whatever brakes you have, grip will always be a limiting factor. On cars we have solved this issue with electronic surveillance of grip in order to get the maximum of braking capabilities. The reason behind this is evident, humans are not capable to manage this themselves. Perhaps you should head directly into the lab again and develop a comparable system for bikes, then you might have a point. While you're at it, develop a rear suspension increasing both grip and anti slide system as has been shown to work on cars. Afterall, the bike industry is only mimicking other real technical industries.

Yeah, and then dump the computers and sensors doing the all surveillance and adjustments and see how well you super humans can ride.
Felice Gimondi
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Re:

31 Dec 2016 11:19

maanderx wrote:So, in order to keep up with new technology, I will (at an expense I'd rather not endure) buy a new disc compatible bike
and learn the skills of how to maintain the discs.


Are hydraulic discs stronger, better 'modulation'? Yes
Are they better, particularly in wet, sloppy, carbon rims, big descents? Yes

BUT are they 'worth it'? Worth is a big word. For those who see who won on Sunday and gotta buy on Monday, yup.
For that small minority that actually rides their rig to the very limit every day striving for those strava points? You bet..

Gotta be the 'standard set tho'..tapered headtube, electronic, hydraulic discs, thru-axle(size/threading TBD), throw in a seat mast and carbon tubeless..get a pro kit, done.

But for some and a large 'some', the expense, weight, complication, just isn't 'worth it'. Ya know, those riders that have a stable of bikes that solve the problem of having a 'bike'. Those that see the object of the ride is the ride. And some will slam me for being old, slow, curmudgeony, Ned Ludd incarnate but for me and a lot of guys I know, ride with, the wholescale transformation to wet disc just aren't 'worth it'.

But if ya like 'em, ride 'em, get on that bike and like Eddy said, 'ride lots'..

I'll uncover the ignore to see your post, which is inevitable. :lol:
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2016 19:18

Bustedknuckle wrote:
maanderx wrote:So, in order to keep up with new technology, I will (at an expense I'd rather not endure) buy a new disc compatible bike
and learn the skills of how to maintain the discs.


Are hydraulic discs stronger, better 'modulation'? Yes
Are they better, particularly in wet, sloppy, carbon rims, big descents? Yes

BUT are they 'worth it'? Worth is a big word. For those who see who won on Sunday and gotta buy on Monday, yup.
For that small minority that actually rides their rig to the very limit every day striving for those strava points? You bet..

Gotta be the 'standard set tho'..tapered headtube, electronic, hydraulic discs, thru-axle(size/threading TBD), throw in a seat mast and carbon tubeless..get a pro kit, done.

But for some and a large 'some', the expense, weight, complication, just isn't 'worth it'. Ya know, those riders that have a stable of bikes that solve the problem of having a 'bike'. Those that see the object of the ride is the ride. And some will slam me for being old, slow, curmudgeony, Ned Ludd incarnate but for me and a lot of guys I know, ride with, the wholescale transformation to wet disc just aren't 'worth it'.

But if ya like 'em, ride 'em, get on that bike and like Eddy said, 'ride lots'..

I'll uncover the ignore to see your post, which is inevitable. :lol:


Right, because we all know who this baiting is meant for, don't we.

Ah, ok it all makes sense now. All non-sequiturs think alike. New technology costs money, but you don't wan't to spend it or learn how to maintain it. Hey, that's right up your alley!

Majority of road disc sales are overwhelmingly going to non-racers as a single bike solution, less carbon, no hydro, and no strava. And did you just attempt to burn "electronic"? YOU RIDE EPS! :lol:

How comforting to know that the person with no disc brakes, limited experience, and doesn't want anything to do with them is still compelled to give advice, take jabs wherever possible, and debate on...disc? Something seriously wrong with this picture. Every argument you've posed here has been refuted time and time again. And not just today, last week, or last month.. for years man, YEARS! The only real reason you come back here is that you hold a grudge that doesn't even involve me, at the same rate bash anything that you never really used or hardly worked on because you delegated to messing about with that 'newfagled junk' to the guy who now owns your shop. Never anything constructive from you here or back when I used to visit you, just plain old vitriol. Was funny once but not anymore. Too bad.
Last edited by MWC on 01 Jan 2017 06:53, edited 7 times in total.
User avatar Giuseppe Magnetico
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2016 20:47

Felice Gimondi wrote:
Well, growing up in a club producing 2010 road WC and riding just as fast as him downhill, I would beg to differ.

...the more slippery it gets; mud, wet grass, snow or ice, the lesser the benefit of disc brakes become.


Seems the almighty Thor figured out that disc is beneficial for slippery conditions. Depicted here on his BMC Crossmachine.
Image


Felice Gimondi wrote:
One cannot argue against the fact that whatever brakes you have, grip will always be a limiting factor.


And one cannot argue against the fact that disc brakes are able to manage that grip better through superior modulation. So where do we go from here?
User avatar Giuseppe Magnetico
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2017 10:44

MWC wrote:
Bustedknuckle wrote:
maanderx wrote:So, in order to keep up with new technology, I will (at an expense I'd rather not endure) buy a new disc compatible bike
and learn the skills of how to maintain the discs.


Are hydraulic discs stronger, better 'modulation'? Yes
Are they better, particularly in wet, sloppy, carbon rims, big descents? Yes

BUT are they 'worth it'? Worth is a big word. For those who see who won on Sunday and gotta buy on Monday, yup.
For that small minority that actually rides their rig to the very limit every day striving for those strava points? You bet..

Gotta be the 'standard set tho'..tapered headtube, electronic, hydraulic discs, thru-axle(size/threading TBD), throw in a seat mast and carbon tubeless..get a pro kit, done.

But for some and a large 'some', the expense, weight, complication, just isn't 'worth it'. Ya know, those riders that have a stable of bikes that solve the problem of having a 'bike'. Those that see the object of the ride is the ride. And some will slam me for being old, slow, curmudgeony, Ned Ludd incarnate but for me and a lot of guys I know, ride with, the wholescale transformation to wet disc just aren't 'worth it'.

But if ya like 'em, ride 'em, get on that bike and like Eddy said, 'ride lots'..

I'll uncover the ignore to see your post, which is inevitable. :lol:


Right, because we all know who this baiting is meant for, don't we.

Ah, ok it all makes sense now. All non-sequiturs think alike. New technology costs money, but you don't wan't to spend it or learn how to maintain it. Hey, that's right up your alley!

Majority of road disc sales are overwhelmingly going to non-racers as a single bike solution, less carbon, no hydro, and no strava. And did you just attempt to burn "electronic"? YOU RIDE EPS! :lol:

How comforting to know that the person with no disc brakes, limited experience, and doesn't want anything to do with them is still compelled to give advice, take jabs wherever possible, and debate on...disc? Something seriously wrong with this picture. Every argument you've posed here has been refuted time and time again. And not just today, last week, or last month.. for years man, YEARS! The only real reason you come back here is that you hold a grudge that doesn't even involve me, at the same rate bash anything that you never really used or hardly worked on because you delegated to messing about with that 'newfagled junk' to the guy who now owns your shop. Never anything constructive from you here or back when I used to visit you, just plain old vitriol. Was funny once but not anymore. Too bad.


You forgot, 'so sad'...predictable, at least. You're so angry, that I don't get, oh well. adios. BTW, I thought you didn't like sram either?? And I thought we had some pretty good conversations when you were delivering stuff from J/B..I guess not.
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2017 17:13

Well, you can only rag on so many people and post nonsense about technology you want/have nothing to do with for so long before somebody calls you out on it. I've done it before and this was your standard issue response. And your utter disdain for niche.. gravel, fat, ring a bell? Those things which you despise so much was the only bright light besides ebikes in a terrible 2016 for the industry. Traditional road bikes being the biggest loser. We are way past the disc brake "cost, weight, complicated" argument that you've been hammering for years, much less any of the performance aspects of discs that have been brought up lately by the trolls. Parts of which even you agree on.

Your clash with SRAM has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard happen in the industry, for that I'm truly sorry. Nobody should ever endure what you went through. I don't like certain things about SRAM either, but not anywhere near your level. You should post a new thread that sheds light on that situation in detail, maybe even an 'industry shaming' thread. I know you'd love to curate that one. Enough with the disc brake debate though, it really doesn't suit you.
Last edited by MWC on 01 Jan 2017 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar Giuseppe Magnetico
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2017 20:34

Felice Gimondi wrote:
Well, growing up in a club producing 2010 road WC and riding just as fast as him downhill, I would beg to differ.

Felice Gimondi wrote:
Try writing text with more neutral sentences and that includes leaving the pointless bragging behind. If your arguments where good you wouldn't have to push you experience, it only makes you look more insecure of yourself, not to mention biased.
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01 Jan 2017 21:43

While two old friends with an axe to grind is entertaining reading, you may want to settle your real differences off line. Because your online differences, at least as it relates to this thread, don't really exist. An admitted curmudgeon acknowledges that disc brakes work better from a mechanical perspective in every situation... he's just got an investment in established technology, and sees no viable reason to spend time and money to adopt the latest iteration of braking technology. The other understands the new isn't always better, but when it is, it should be acknowledged as such. I am sure that there are, and will remain, a few classic bikes in his stable that have perfectly functional rim brakes. I know there are in mine.

The resentment we feel when the industry arbitrarily moves on to the next new technology can be based in our personal investments, or our assessment of that technologies real value. Both perspectives are moot. The industry, like a shark, must continually move forward or die. Those of us with a shed full of bikes ironically are not their demographic target. Yes we are dedicated cyclists, but we do not create the new demands in the market. We make existing technology work well, because we know how. We support a portion of the parts and maintenance side of the industry. It is an important component of the cycling industry, but it does not drive the market or profits. The parts we continually need to keep our aging technology rolling costs more as time goes by, because it costs component manufacturers more to support. We can continue to keep that technology rolling until a time when the cost of doing so outpaces the cost of replacement.

We agree that disc brakes on road bikes work better. To refute that position is to admit to not having used them. It doesn't mean Dura Ace 9000 calipers do not. I have in my fleet a Campagnolo C Record / Delta brake equipped Bianchi Centanario. I don't ride it very often, but it is still an amazing bike. My choice to keep it has more to do with my personal valuation of it, not it's technological excellence, which was once as good as it got. Conversely I do ride a Di2 hydro disc carbon rode bike most of the time. It is quite amazing. The future of road bike design will include disc brakes at ever lower price points, exactly as it did in mountain bike development. Ultimately what we are debating here is; will the sun come up tomorrow, and the day after that. I am betting that it will, which means at some point in the future the financial scales will tip in favor of an investment in new cycling equipment, and your choices away from road disc brakes will be severely limited.
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01 Jan 2017 22:08

Finally a voice of reason! Thanks for putting it all into perspective, VF.

On a lighter note; between you and Bustedknuckle, both with Delta, and my daily commuter with Olympus cantis...we have without question a couple of the worst rim brakes Campagnolo ever produced. Somehow, we got them to work just fine. :lol:
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Re: Re:

01 Jan 2017 22:56

MWC wrote:Well, you can only rag on so many people and post nonsense about technology you want/have nothing to do with for so long before somebody calls you out on it. I've done it before and this was your standard issue response. And your utter disdain for niche.. gravel, fat, ring a bell? Those things which you despise so much was the only bright light besides ebikes in a terrible 2016 for the industry. Traditional road bikes being the biggest loser. We are way past the disc brake "cost, weight, complicated" argument that you've been hammering for years, much less any of the performance aspects of discs that have been brought up lately by the trolls. Parts of which even you agree on.

Your clash with SRAM has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard happen in the industry, for that I'm truly sorry. Nobody should ever endure what you went through. I don't like certain things about SRAM either, but not anywhere near your level. You should post a new thread that sheds light on that situation in detail, maybe even an 'industry shaming' thread. I know you'd love to curate that one. Enough with the disc brake debate though, it really doesn't suit you.


Cya on the road...out of this for good, life is too short.
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Re:

02 Jan 2017 00:29

MWC wrote:Finally a voice of reason! Thanks for putting it all into perspective, VF.

On a lighter note; between you and Bustedknuckle, both with Delta, and my daily commuter with Olympus cantis...we have without question a couple of the worst rim brakes Campagnolo ever produced. Somehow, we got them to work just fine. :lol:


Fine?... mmmmm, somewhere south of fine. They look cool though.
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Re: Re:

02 Jan 2017 00:50

VeloFidelis wrote:
MWC wrote:Finally a voice of reason! Thanks for putting it all into perspective, VF.

On a lighter note; between you and Bustedknuckle, both with Delta, and my daily commuter with Olympus cantis...we have without question a couple of the worst rim brakes Campagnolo ever produced. Somehow, we got them to work just fine. :lol:


Fine?... mmmmm, somewhere south of fine. They look cool though.


Apparently Bustedknuckle has the trick for eeking out the best from a Delta. All I did was change to KoolStop salmon Thinline pads and, ...... meh, they still suck. Who am I trying fool. ;)
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04 Jan 2017 14:25

MWC is allowed to keep posting insults, along with Velofedis.......becusse they like shiny new things?



Not too many pro bikes for 2017 pictured with discs as far as i see so far.

Yeah 20 years on mtbs, yuo'd think if they were that necessary they would have been on the pros road bikes for the last 19.

But hey what would i know. I bow to the knowledge of a guy who spends all his time yelling at others in the disc thread. Sram troll or what....
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