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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 14:43

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
The sensible way to go is to effectively increase power where the leg is idling.
...

----------------
Yes, short term power could be increased that way, but at what cost to endurance due to increased muscle fatigue? It wouldn't be wise to activate low efficiency muscles that drain O2 and fuel except for short duration critical needs.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA



You have not read my explanation for Anquetil's extra power in time trials on the previous page or if you did, you did not understand it.
The objective of the non round ring rider is to attempt to apply additional minimal torque to the crank around 3 o'c with the same leg that is already applying maximal torque, the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 21:05

backdoor wrote:...
the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.

-------------------------------------
What clock segments of the 'natural technique' to you think are idling?
Does the 'semi circular technique' produce significant torque throughout the entirety of those segments?
What segments of the 'semi circular technique' are idling?

I think the main concern about what segments are used is the physiology that enables high power, good muscle endurance, and efficient use of 'fuel'. The precise usage of segments probably varies from person to person, and it might be that some people can do very well using a technique that is not appropriate for others.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
JayKosta
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Re: Re:

17 Mar 2017 22:10

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
The sensible way to go is to effectively increase power where the leg is idling.
...

----------------
Yes, short term power could be increased that way, but at what cost to endurance due to increased muscle fatigue? It wouldn't be wise to activate low efficiency muscles that drain O2 and fuel except for short duration critical needs.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA



You have not read my explanation for Anquetil's extra power in time trials on the previous page or if you did, you did not understand it.
The objective of the non round ring rider is to attempt to apply additional minimal torque to the crank around 3 o'c with the same leg that is already applying maximal torque, the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.

Show us the data Noel.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 00:30

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
the objective of Anq's semi circular technique is to apply additional maximal torque to the crank when both legs of the natural pedaller are idling.

-------------------------------------
What clock segments of the 'natural technique' do you think are idling?
Does the 'semi circular technique' produce significant torque throughout the entirety of those segments?
What segments of the 'semi circular technique' are idling?

I think the main concern about what segments are used is the physiology that enables high power, good muscle endurance, and efficient use of 'fuel'. The precise usage of segments probably varies from person to person, and it might be that some people can do very well using a technique that is not appropriate for others.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Segments idling 11-1 and 5 -7. No only in the upper segment with close to maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. There is no (both legs) idling sector in the semi circular technique. There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

18 Mar 2017 13:17

backdoor wrote:...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.

-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
JayKosta
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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2017 11:40

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.

-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2017 08:25

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.

-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.


Because a non-idling muscle has a cost. You need oxygen, glucose and water to feed that non-idling muscle.

You need to prove that paying that cost has a net benefit.
berend
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Re: Re:

22 Mar 2017 22:44

berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.

-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.


Because a non-idling muscle has a cost. You need oxygen, glucose and water to feed that non-idling muscle.

You need to prove that paying that cost has a net benefit.



As for cost and benefit, taking that idling leg over TDC is not free of cost. From the same maximal force a masher can apply to his pedal at 1.30 o'c a semi circular pedaller can double the torque of that masher. Do you think the Osy chainring will be the last attempt at changing chainring shape .
backdoor
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Re: Re:

22 Mar 2017 23:53

backdoor wrote: As for cost and benefit, taking that idling leg over TDC is not free of cost. From the same maximal force a masher can apply to his pedal at 1.30 o'c a semi circular pedaller can double the torque of that masher.

Data please.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

23 Mar 2017 08:22

backdoor wrote:
berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
There is nothing to prevent any rider from using this technique except lack of knowledge.

-----------------------------
Of course any rider could USE that technique, the question is whether it would be an improvement.
And there is not any objective data from anyone who uses/used it. Nor is there anyone except you (that I know of), who claims that it gave them an improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


How about adding up all that muscle idling time during a 10 m TT when they could be applying maximal torque. Like the Rotor Crank idea the oval shaped rings could recover a small fraction of this lost time but only if the muscle coordination was adjusted instead of waiting for the pedalling to adapt, that would not be as effective with the oval shaped rings.


Because a non-idling muscle has a cost. You need oxygen, glucose and water to feed that non-idling muscle.

You need to prove that paying that cost has a net benefit.



As for cost and benefit, taking that idling leg over TDC is not free of cost. From the same maximal force a masher can apply to his pedal at 1.30 o'c a semi circular pedaller can double the torque of that masher. Do you think the Osy chainring will be the last attempt at changing chainring shape .


That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.
berend
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Re: Re:

23 Mar 2017 19:56

berend wrote:



That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.


Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

23 Mar 2017 20:32

backdoor wrote:
berend wrote:



That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.


Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.

Data please.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

26 Mar 2017 18:29

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
berend wrote:



That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.


Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.

Data please.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
That and his results in non climbing TT'S.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

26 Mar 2017 20:20

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Data please.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
That and his results in non climbing TT'S.

A video of someone riding bike is not data on pedalling forces.

Data please.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

26 Mar 2017 20:33

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
berend wrote:



That's why I wrote net benefit. Please prove that using the idling muscle will have a net benefit over using the muscles your body uses naturally.


Your body does not know how muscles can be used at TDC because as a child on your first trike you had to concentrate on applying only downward pedal pressure and that is everyone's natural pedalling style. The muscles you are using and the way you use them at TDC are about effective as those some riders try to use during their upstroke. Together with the correct bike setup and equipment you have a combination of muscles that are not only capable of applying the same maximal torque at 12 as that applied at 3 o'c but they can also bend that that maximal torque through 1 and 2 o'c where it merges with natural pedalling's downward torque. Not using that powerful combination of muscles at TDC is like a natural pedaller ignoring his downstroke muscle power and using only his upstroke muscles for pedal power.

Data please.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
That and his results in non climbing TT'S.


Do you get paid by the view? A video is useless at validation your claims. TT results are also useless.
JamesCun
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26 Mar 2017 23:10

So quick summary of Noel's life.

Number of people convinced in his theory: 1.

"How is that working out for you"?
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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Re:

26 Mar 2017 23:19

CoachFergie wrote:So quick summary of Noel's life.

Number of people convinced in his theory: 1.

"How is that working out for you"?


Hey, Noel and I both agree that Jacques had great hair;)

Image

Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
sciguy
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Re:

27 Mar 2017 17:26

CoachFergie wrote:So quick summary of Noel's life.

Number of people convinced in his theory: 1.

"How is that working out for you"?


That's in keeping with cycling research. If for almost 100 years the experts did not even realize the importance of an aero hand/arm position in TT's, how could ye be expected to accept the fact that a completely different perfect TT pedaling technique exists. Your wallet will not give you an advantage in TT's, it's still a level playing field, only technique can do that.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

27 Mar 2017 20:03

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:So quick summary of Noel's life.

Number of people convinced in his theory: 1.

"How is that working out for you"?


That's in keeping with cycling research. If for almost 100 years the experts did not even realize the importance of an aero hand/arm position in TT's, how could ye be expected to accept the fact that a completely different perfect TT pedaling technique exists. Your wallet will not give you an advantage in TT's, it's still a level playing field, only technique can do that.

Data please.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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27 Mar 2017 21:08

Exists in your mind is not the same as actually exists.

If it actually existed it would be easy to measure.

If it actually worked any power meter would show you that.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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