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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

16 Apr 2017 17:17

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:True, but that's the natural technique where the power generation of your most effective muscles ends at your knee and this restricts you to only a downward force Using the other technique (indoor T o'W) you are using a combination of power generating muscles from glutes to ball of foot where their objective is similar to that of the hydraulic system of the JCB as it drives that front bucket forward and down. And that was how Anquetil drove that smooth constant force from his rear end to the cranks.

So at 11 you contract your glutes, that pushes the crank backwards. At the same time you are kicking your foot forward to counteract the glutes pushing back. Sounds like a horrendous waste of energy.

What you're describing already happens in 'natural pedalling'...from 1ish not 11. Most just understand that it can only contribute to the start of force generating and leads the way for the quads to take over as the pedals hit 3ish.

You can't change basic physical laws to suit your warped view of an ancient rider on YouTube.


How many times do I have to say it, there is more than one way the glutes can be used.


You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.

Please describe, with some pictures, how the glutes do anything but push the leg down on a bike.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

16 Apr 2017 17:34

backdoor wrote:Your entire leg is working as a unit, no independent actions like kicking forward from the knee.

-------------------------
No, the leg doesn't work 'as a unit'. From the hip to the ball of the foot there are many distinct 'lever arms' and muscles to make them move. It's the controlled and balanced movement of all those levers that is needed for a good pedalling technique.

The 'kicking (or just moving) forward from the knee' for pedalling is one of those actions that is incorporated in the movement. For some people, it might be a 'natural motion' and not require any thought or specific initiation, but others might need to train themselves to perform it.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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16 Apr 2017 20:20

Just provide the data Noel.
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Re: Re:

17 Apr 2017 09:38

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:Your entire leg is working as a unit, no independent actions like kicking forward from the knee.

-------------------------
No, the leg doesn't work 'as a unit'. From the hip to the ball of the foot there are many distinct 'lever arms' and muscles to make them move. It's the controlled and balanced movement of all those levers that is needed for a good pedalling technique.


Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


They can't work as a unit in natural pedalling because the muscles below the knee are not used and this leaves you with those leg idling sectors at TDC and BDC. For effective 180 deg torque application from each leg they have to work as a unit. The effectiveness of your pedalling technique depends on the type of power you require (touring RR's TT's) and I am only referring to flat roads, one technique is not best for all.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

17 Apr 2017 11:02

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:Your entire leg is working as a unit, no independent actions like kicking forward from the knee.

-------------------------
No, the leg doesn't work 'as a unit'. From the hip to the ball of the foot there are many distinct 'lever arms' and muscles to make them move. It's the controlled and balanced movement of all those levers that is needed for a good pedalling technique.


Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


They can't work as a unit in natural pedalling because the muscles below the knee are not used and this leaves you with those leg idling sectors at TDC and BDC. For effective 180 deg torque application from each leg they have to work as a unit. The effectiveness of your pedalling technique depends on the type of power you require (touring RR's TT's) and I am only referring to flat roads, one technique is not best for all.

Please describe, with some pictures, how the glutes do anything but push the leg down on a bike.
JamesCun
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17 Apr 2017 13:35

This article provides some good info about about various leg muscles and joints that are used during pedalling.

Joint-Specific Power Production during Submaximal and Maximal Cycling
STEVEN J. ELMER, PAUL R. BARRATT, THOMAS KORFF, and JAMES C. MARTIN
Official Journal of the American College of Sports Medicine
0195-9131/11/4310-1940/0
MEDICINE & SCIENCE IN SPORTS & EXERCISE
Copyright  2011 by the American College of Sports Medicine
DOI: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e31821b00c5
http://www.acsm-msse.org

https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/download/4427/4117 shortened version of the article
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Re: Re:

18 Apr 2017 20:57

backdoor"]JamesCun"

True, but that's the natural technique where the power generation of your most effective muscles ends at your knee and this restricts you to only a downward force Using the other technique (indoor T o'W) you are using a combination of power generating muscles from glutes to ball of foot where their objective is similar to that of the hydraulic system of the JCB as it drives that front bucket forward and down. And that was how Anquetil drove that smooth constant force from his rear end to the cranks.[/quote]


You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.

[/quote]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs
backdoor
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Re: Re:

18 Apr 2017 21:13

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs


What on earth is that relevant?
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

18 Apr 2017 21:48

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs


What on earth is that relevant?


If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.
backdoor
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18 Apr 2017 21:56

So you mean for the last 15 or so years of your nonsense you haven't taken the time to try and teach this to a rider locally.

I guess happy with your delusions rather than test in the real world and find out you have wasted all your life.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

18 Apr 2017 22:03

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs


What on earth is that relevant?


If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.


How?? The glutes can't push the leg forward, it isn't physically possible on a bike.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

18 Apr 2017 22:44

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
You can't invent basic mechanics. Seated on a bike, the glutes extend the leg. That is it. You can't make up new actions like pushing the leg forward or some other motion. And your example of hydraulics in a digger is flawed as hydraulics can push and pull. Muscles only pull.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHcUqaDVYs


What on earth is that relevant?


If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.


How?? The glutes can't push the leg forward, it isn't physically possible on a bike.


They don't have to, it's the combined effort of the glutes, quads and calf muscles that does it, the glutes supply the resistance that is necessary for this maximal forward force.
backdoor
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18 Apr 2017 22:56

Very funny Noel, I'm amazed that the Pro Tour are not knocking down your door to reap the benefits of your methods.

Or the men in white coats.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

18 Apr 2017 22:56

backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JamesCun wrote:


What on earth is that relevant?


If you knew how to use them, like this hydraulic set up, your muscles are capable of generating a maximal forward torque at 12 o'c, starting their forward force application around 11 o'c.


How?? The glutes can't push the leg forward, it isn't physically possible on a bike.


They don't have to, it's the combined effort of the glutes, quads and calf muscles that does it, the glutes supply the resistance that is necessary for this maximal forward force.


So we are back to kicking the lower leg forward. I don't think that is a very powerful or efficient motion. They also have to counteract the force of the glutes pushing the crank back, or 'adding resistance' as you put it.
JamesCun
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Re: Re:

24 Apr 2017 19:42

backdoor wrote:[quote="[url=



They don't have to, it's the combined effort of the glutes, quads and calf muscles that does it, the glutes supply the resistance that is necessary for this maximal forward force.


Maybe this will make it clearer.

http://www.ilovebicycling.com/why-is-core-strength-important-for-cyclists/

In natural pedaling * A strong core is the platform that you push from", but this puts the lower back under continuous stress and is one of the root causes of lower back pain when riding your bike, the other cause is having to support all of the upper body weight. By changing your application of peak torque by 45 deg. from 3 o'c to 1.30 o'c, your glutes become the platform you push from, eliminating that stress from the lower back, while alternate use of the arms support all upper body weight, leaving a stress and pain free lower back even when turning your highest gear.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

24 Apr 2017 20:50

backdoor wrote:
backdoor wrote:[quote="[url=



They don't have to, it's the combined effort of the glutes, quads and calf muscles that does it, the glutes supply the resistance that is necessary for this maximal forward force.


Maybe this will make it clearer.

http://www.ilovebicycling.com/why-is-core-strength-important-for-cyclists/

In natural pedaling * A strong core is the platform that you push from", but this puts the lower back under continuous stress and is one of the root causes of lower back pain when riding your bike, the other cause is having to support all of the upper body weight. By changing your application of peak torque by 45 deg. from 3 o'c to 1.30 o'c, your glutes become the platform you push from, eliminating that stress from the lower back, while alternate use of the arms support all upper body weight, leaving a stress and pain free lower back even when turning your highest gear.


Data please. This is all very measurable, so you could easily teach someone this and measure before and after power to show any improvement.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

25 Apr 2017 01:52

My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim


CoachFergie wrote:Data please. This is all very measurable, so you could easily teach someone this and measure before and after power to show any improvement.
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Re: Re:

27 Apr 2017 21:14

PhitBoy wrote:My oh my but we are having a very interesting debate! Its a lot like the one we had 92 pages back. And 91 pages back, and...
Kinda reminds me of US politics right now: Rational people make rational arguments but irrational people are immune to facts so they aren't swayed. The irrational arguments make no sense at all so they cannot sway any rational people. But that's no reason not to repeat argument->counterargument over and over ad nauseam.
Let me know when there's a winner.
Cheers,
Jim


Maybe you don't like being reminded that after over 500 pedalling studies by scientists, cycling's two major problems are still in existence today.

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/how-to-avoid-lower-back-pain-while-cycling

This type of advice from the experts that appears each year in magazines is of no benefit to those who suffer from chronic lower back pain when riding their bikes. I know because I was one of those who had to endure the torture.
backdoor
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28 Apr 2017 01:13

..and you still haven't shown us your miraculous technique.
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Re: Re:

28 Apr 2017 03:05

backdoor wrote:more belief-based nonsense
Back pain is not unique to cycling
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