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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2018 10:41

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:... I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

-----------------------------------
What is the 'undetectable adjustment' for glutes and quads? If you want people to understand your ideas, please tell the 'whole story'.

Jay


It is identical to the way these competitors are using their glutes and quads. Of course you will be using a different body position on the bike but for maximal torque at TDC you will only need a fraction of the force their muscles are producing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ6gsaTmlWc
backdoor
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Re: Re:

06 Sep 2018 10:58

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:... I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

-----------------------------------
What is the 'undetectable adjustment' for glutes and quads? If you want people to understand your ideas, please tell the 'whole story'.

Jay


Here is a question and answer from another forum,

====================================================================================================
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm
by TheKaiser on Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:48 am

TheDarkInstall wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:43 am
Anyone got any technical info or links on how the muscles in the leg, and more specifically the foot, operate during pedalling?

I am also looking for insight into how the nerves in the feet are possibly affected during the pedal stroke. I realise this is a big question...

Cheers for anything you can share regarding this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you said, it's a very big question.

I'm guessing you have already seen graphics like this one, that display which muscles of the leg are recruited during each phase of the pedal stroke: https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-primary-muscles-used-for-cycling-and-how-to-train-them/

As you will observe, that graphic does not even acknowledge that the foot is playing a role, and the discussion is limited almost entirely to the leg and glute/hip flexor.

Most people seem to view the foot as simply acting as a lever, transmitting the force of the leg muscles (primarily the upper leg muscles) to the pedal. The whole idea behind midfoot cleat positioning stems from the idea that even the calf, while recruited during pedaling, is not contributing significantly to the generation of power, at least unless you are sprinting, when "ankling" comes more into play: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2 ... ition.html This is in contrast to running when a stretch/rebound of the achilles and plantar fascia, and "toe spring" are a key part of one's forward propulsion.

To put it another way, those views suggest that recruitment of the foot, and even the calf, should be minimized while cycling
==================================================================================================
backdoor
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Re: Re:

07 Sep 2018 22:52

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:... I am not surprised trying to use the soleus around 9 o'c resulted in negative torque because for torque production purposes it cannot be activated until 11 o'c, and for this activation to take place you need a very important yet undetectable adjustment in the use of glutes and quads at the start of the power stroke around 11 o'c.

-----------------------------------
What is the 'undetectable adjustment' for glutes and quads? If you want people to understand your ideas, please tell the 'whole story'.

Jay


Here is a question and answer from another forum,

====================================================================================================
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm
by TheKaiser on Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:48 am

TheDarkInstall wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:43 am
Anyone got any technical info or links on how the muscles in the leg, and more specifically the foot, operate during pedalling?

I am also looking for insight into how the nerves in the feet are possibly affected during the pedal stroke. I realise this is a big question...

Cheers for anything you can share regarding this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you said, it's a very big question.

I'm guessing you have already seen graphics like this one, that display which muscles of the leg are recruited during each phase of the pedal stroke: https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-primary-muscles-used-for-cycling-and-how-to-train-them/

As you will observe, that graphic does not even acknowledge that the foot is playing a role, and the discussion is limited almost entirely to the leg and glute/hip flexor.

Most people seem to view the foot as simply acting as a lever, transmitting the force of the leg muscles (primarily the upper leg muscles) to the pedal. The whole idea behind midfoot cleat positioning stems from the idea that even the calf, while recruited during pedaling, is not contributing significantly to the generation of power, at least unless you are sprinting, when "ankling" comes more into play: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2 ... ition.html This is in contrast to running when a stretch/rebound of the achilles and plantar fascia, and "toe spring" are a key part of one's forward propulsion.

To put it another way, those views suggest that recruitment of the foot, and even the calf, should be minimized while cycling
==================================================================================================


It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
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Re: Re:

08 Sep 2018 12:29

backdoor wrote:... It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

-----------------------------------------------------------
It would be helpful if you described these factors for each 30 degree segment of crank rotation -

1) Direction that force is being applied to the pedal

2) Amount of muscle exertion/activation that is attempted to be applied to produce force, e.g. very high, high, moderate, light, very light

3) position of the heel of the foot, e.g raised, neutral, lowered. And whether (and how) the position for the foot is being changed during the segment

Jay
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Re: Re:

10 Sep 2018 22:54

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:... It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

-----------------------------------------------------------
It would be helpful if you described these factors for each 30 degree segment of crank rotation -

1) Direction that force is being applied to the pedal

2) Amount of muscle exertion/activation that is attempted to be applied to produce force, e.g. very high, high, moderate, light, very light

3) position of the heel of the foot, e.g raised, neutral, lowered. And whether (and how) the position for the foot is being changed during the segment

Jay


1) Maximal forward force around 11 o'c which continues and is fully tangential at 12, that same force is then bent slightly downward to retain the tangential effect at 1, after 1.30 the slightly bent downward force combines with the natural downward force resulting in maximal tangential force at 2, between 2 - 3 the natural downward force takes over until 5 where the simultaneous switchover of maximal force application between legs takes place, the idling foot is then drawn backward and up to about 10 where it is pushed by the other leg to 11 where the changeover takes place.
2) As much as what is required. (up to very high)
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

PS As the foot is drawn backward from 5 to 10 o'c (no scraping of mud off shoe) unweighting and dorsiflexion is taking place and this df extends the range of plantar flexion from 11 to 2. It is the use of plantar flexion that makes it possible to bend the glutes/quads maximal torque from 12 past 1 o'c.
Last edited by backdoor on 22 Sep 2018 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

11 Sep 2018 13:11

backdoor wrote:...
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

--------------------------------
Thanks for the details - I had thought that the technique used 'heel down' at 11, and then forcefully moved to 'heel up' at about 1:30.

Jay
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Re: Re:

11 Sep 2018 19:24

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

--------------------------------
Thanks for the details - I had thought that the technique used 'heel down' at 11, and then forcefully moved to 'heel up' at about 1:30.

Jay



" Which muscles are used?
Plantar flexion involves a coordinated effort between several muscles in your ankle, foot, and leg. These include:

Gastrocnemius: This muscle makes up half of your calf muscle. It runs down the back of your lower leg, from behind your knee to the Achilles tendon in your heel. It’s one of the main muscles involved in plantar flexion.

Soleus: The soleus muscle also plays a major role in plantar flexion. Like the gastrocnemius, it’s one of the calf muscles in the back of the leg. It connects to the Achilles tendon at the heel. You need this muscle to push your foot away from the ground.

Plantaris: This long, thin muscle runs along the back of the leg, from the end of the thighbone down to the Achilles tendon. The plantaris muscle works in conjunction with the Achilles tendon to flex your ankle and knee. You use this muscle every time you stand on your tiptoes.

Flexor hallucis longus: This muscle lies deep inside your leg. It runs down the lower leg all the way to the big toe. It helps you flex your big toe so that you can walk and hold yourself upright while on your tiptoes.

Flexor digitorum longus: This is another one of the deep muscles in the lower leg. It starts out thin, but gradually widens as it moves down the leg. It helps to flex all the toes except for the big toe.

Tibialis posterior: The tibialis posterior is a smaller muscle that lies deep in the lower leg. It’­s involved with both plantar flexion and inversion — when you turn the sole of the foot inward toward the other foot.

Peroneus longus: Also called fibularis longus, this muscle runs along the side of the lower leg to the big toe. It works with the tibialis posterior muscle to keep your ankle stable while you stand on tiptoe. It’s involved in both plantar flexion and eversion — when you turn the sole of the foot outward, away from the other foot.

Peroneus brevis: The peroneus brevis, also called the fibularis brevis muscle, is underneath the peroneus longus. “Brevis” means “short” in Latin. The peroneus brevis is shorter than the peroneus longus. It helps keep your foot stable while in plantar flexion.^

In this technique plantar flexion is used in combination with a very different use of the glutes and quads when generating the maximal force between 11 and 2 o'c. You need to warm up for about 10 mins with natural pedalling before using it
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11 Sep 2018 20:44

Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay
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Re:

22 Sep 2018 23:01

JayKosta wrote:Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay


I added a PS to my earlier description. Like all other scientists involved with cycling physiologists believe it's impossible to apply maximal torque at 12 o'c and that is why the futile search for the ideal oval chainring still continues.
http://www.bikeblogordie.com/2016/05/a-short-history-of-elliptical-chainrings.html
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Re: Re:

23 Sep 2018 04:01

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay


I added a PS to my earlier description. Like all other scientists involved with cycling physiologists believe it's impossible to apply maximal torque at 12 o'c and that is why the futile search for the ideal oval chainring still continues.
http://www.bikeblogordie.com/2016/05/a-short-history-of-elliptical-chainrings.html

There's no believing required. These things have been measured for decades*.
Just show us some data Noel.

* Actually the first force measurement pedals were made in the 1890s.
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Re: Re:

23 Sep 2018 18:50

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:Naming and identifying the muscles is only useful AFTER the MOTION of the various limbs has been precisely described (and the 'motion' includes the angles, speed of motion, and the amount of muscle exertion being used in the course of moving the limbs). Once all of those aspects of the MOTION are known, then the physiologists can analyze and describe which individual muscles are being used to achieve the motion, and the suitability of those muscle being used in that way.

Jay


I added a PS to my earlier description. Like all other scientists involved with cycling physiologists believe it's impossible to apply maximal torque at 12 o'c and that is why the futile search for the ideal oval chainring still continues.
http://www.bikeblogordie.com/2016/05/a-short-history-of-elliptical-chainrings.html

There's no believing required. These things have been measured for decades*.
Just show us some data Noel.

* Actually the first force measurement pedals were made in the 1890s.


"These things have been measured for decades*"

For what purpose ?
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23 Sep 2018 21:05

Noel you keep claiming all sort of things about ways to apply torque to the bicycle cranks.

Yet you produce absolutely zero evidence by the way of pedal force or crank torque data. The technology exists to supply this information and has existed for a long time. So supply some data.
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Re: Re:

23 Sep 2018 22:42

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:... It would be interesting to know what muscles PhitBoy maximized around TDC in his latest study. By maximizing the recruitment of the foot and lower leg muscles around TDC, 1 and 2 o'c, you can get maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c as this man did in time trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

-----------------------------------------------------------
It would be helpful if you described these factors for each 30 degree segment of crank rotation -

1) Direction that force is being applied to the pedal

2) Amount of muscle exertion/activation that is attempted to be applied to produce force, e.g. very high, high, moderate, light, very light

3) position of the heel of the foot, e.g raised, neutral, lowered. And whether (and how) the position for the foot is being changed during the segment

Jay


1) Maximal forward force around 11 o'c which continues and is fully tangential at 12, that same force is then bent slightly downward to retain the tangential effect at 1, after 1.30 the slightly bent downward force combines with the natural downward force resulting in maximal tangential force at 2, between 2 - 3 the natural downward force takes over until 5 where the simultaneous switchover of maximal force application between legs takes place, the idling foot is then drawn backward and up to about 10 where it is pushed by the other leg to 11 where the changeover takes place.
2) As much as what is required. (up to very high)
3) Heel raised/toe down, almost no change because plantar flexion force is a vital part of the technique from 11 to after 2 o'c and retaining that foot position keeps the rising foot ready for that simultaneous changeover of power application at 11.

PS As the foot is drawn backward from 5 to 10 o'c (no scraping of mud off shoe) unweighting and dorsiflexion is taking place and this df extends the range of plantar flexion from 11 to 2. It is the use of plantar flexion that makes it possible to bend the glutes/quads maximal torque from 12 past 1 o'c.


" Strength and Forces of the ankle and foot

The strongest movement at the ankle or foot is plantar flexion. Plantar flexion strength is greatest from a position of slight dorsiflexion. A starting dorsiflexion angle of 105 deg. will increase plantar flexion force by 16% from the neutral 90 deg. position. "
All part of the perfect pedalling technique.
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24 Sep 2018 04:32

Data please Noel.
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25 Sep 2018 12:10

Question about tug-of-war muscle usage (since it has been mentioned several times).

Is there any online information about how the lower leg and foot muscles are used or trained for t-o-w? The info that I have found primarily discusses the upper leg and back muscles as providing the 'driving force'. I can understand how it might 'feel' that the foot is being strongly pushed forward by the lower leg, but I cannot determine if that is actually happening.

Jay
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Re:

25 Sep 2018 19:09

JayKosta wrote:Question about tug-of-war muscle usage (since it has been mentioned several times).

Is there any online information about how the lower leg and foot muscles are used or trained for t-o-w? The info that I have found primarily discusses the upper leg and back muscles as providing the 'driving force'. I can understand how it might 'feel' that the foot is being strongly pushed forward by the lower leg, but I cannot determine if that is actually happening.

Jay


No because like pedalling it is an instinctive action'
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“Unfortunately, the clubs are declining, just because of the reasons outlined, plus, the special mat we use could be anything up to two and a half grand just for that. It’s hard to raise money, and if you’re training, the shoes will only last you three weeks — that’s another 40 or 50 euro. Then if you’re going in a competition, you need three or four pairs of shoes. So it is a big expense and there are a lot more outdoor teams than there are indoor, because in the former, the one pair of shoes will do you for your whole career.
One other worry for many people is the risk of injury, with reports of some gruesome injuries occurring over the years, including accidents involving the loss of fingers and severed arms. Nonetheless, Gallagher is adamant that only those who have not been trained properly and lack any real experience are at risk of such harm.

I wouldn’t be concerned [about injuries],” he says. “The reason people get bad injuries is because they don’t do it right. Our anchorman had a really bad back, but since he started pulling tug of war 10 years ago, he never had a day’s bother with his back, his legs or anything else. I presume the men who get injured are outdoor men, which is completely different to indoor.

When you bend your back away from your set position, that’s when you get injured. In indoor tug of war, if you see the pictures, every man has a straight back. You can’t bend over, because if you bend, the team’s going to take it, and it’s not going to get back. So you’ve more chance of getting hurt in outdoor tug of war than indoor tug of war. And there are instances of people with bad backs who are actually encouraged to start tug of war.”
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Those doing pedalling research are unaware of the fact that by means of hip and knee extension the powerful glute and quad muscles are capable of generating two equal maximal forces at 90 deg. to each other and plantar flexion not only merges these two forces, it also maximizes torque around 1.30 o'c. Tug o'war is the only sport I know of that uses these two forces, one for outdoor and the other for indoor. In outdoor t o'w, power is applied through the heel and is generated in almost the same way as natural pedalling, with as mentioned above the same back problems. The indoor people apply it mostly through the ball of foot in a forward direction and the amount of wear on the shoes gives an indication of the force that is being generated. Indoor uses plantar flexion.
Last edited by backdoor on 28 Sep 2018 15:34, edited 1 time in total.
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26 Sep 2018 21:41

Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.
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Re:

27 Sep 2018 10:16

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.


Did you need data before you would believe using the downhill skiers upper body position would improve TT times ?
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27 Sep 2018 12:06

It appears that indoor t-o-w competitors can produce very high levels of 'forward horizontal foot force' (my terminology) - otherwise the lower leg bend at the knee could not be maintained during the 'moving pull step' (as opposed to the almost straight leg 'hold position'. But the relationship of that force to pedalling is unclear to me - primarily because t-o-w is a very short duration event with small actual movement, and appears to be highly anaerobic.
see -
http://www.headconf.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/7927.pdf
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/3821/3540

Jay
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Re: Re:

27 Sep 2018 20:35

backdoor wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Noel, please provide some data. Those doing research provide data. You just make **** up.


Did you need data before you would believe using the downhill skiers upper body position would improve TT times ?

Data was available - speed data from empirical testing along with existing detailed knowledge of the aerodynamics of changing the shape of an object through fluid flow - this was well established science, with clearly understood outcomes and lots of data already. There was no need for "belief".

You have not provided any data to demonstrate changes in performance due to some mythical way of pedalling on a bicycle.

Even something as simple as power output resulting from changes to pedalling technique would suffice, let alone data on the actual application of torque to the bicycle cranks.

Not a single bit of data. Nil, nada, zip.
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