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The pedaling technique thread

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Re: Re:

07 Nov 2016 13:24

JamesCun wrote:
backdoor wrote:
veganrob wrote:
backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Or the force measuring pedals in sport science labs that have around for a good 40 years.

But ANY power meter can be used to test if your technique is better.


Better at what, ?

Quoting from 'Measuring Pedal Forces' by R. Bini and F. Carpes.

" Bicycle components have changed over the years to minimize resistive forces and energy cost for pedalling with purpose of maximizing cycling performance. Along these lines the assessment of forces exerted by cyclists is important for the analysis of pedaling technique and anticipate injury risk factors.
Cyclists continuously aim to produce maximal possible power output for longer duration, particularly when power delivered to the cranks can be translated into bicycle speed. To ascertain the optimal transfer of forces applied to the pedals to cranks, the measurement of pedal forces and pedal motion is critical for the development of interventions with focus on increasing maximal crank torque. An alternative approach is to define a given speed (or power output) and to seek for alternative ways to minimize peak crank torque and pedal forces in order to maximize the use of pedal force application."

Anquetil used this alternative approach.

maybe you could show us a video of this aternative approach you speak of. I would really like to see it. thanks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU

That's the best I can do. In that close up on the track finishing straight he is applying the same maximal torque at 12, 1, 2 and 3 o'c. By extending the range of your max torque sector from 30 to almost 120 deg. you can increase power output from your pedalling power stroke while reducing your peak force/torque.


That is incredible that you are able to perform that analysis so accurately based on a simple youtube video. To think that the 'experts' send thousands of dollars on high tech equipment to test the same things and somehow don't find as useful a solution as you have. You should really find a way to validate your technical assessment and revolutionize bike racing for everyone!!



That analysis is not based on his videos. We both discovered this same extended maximal power output technique. I don't know what led him to it but I found it as I attempted to biomechanically combine arm and leg power. I got the idea after passing a physically handicapped rider who was powering his trike with his hands/arms. This technique needs a special bike set up so that the imaginary leg power application and arm resistance lines are parallel. That probably explains why Anquetil's bars were set higher than what was customary for that period. The videos only confirmed we were using identical power generating techniques.
backdoor
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07 Nov 2016 20:54

What a crock of s**t.

What a vivid imagination you have. You have discovered nothing.

Very easy to estimate the effects of your pedalling technique with ANY power meter to see if more power can be generated, yet you stick to your delusions.

What a sad individual.
Hamish Ferguson
coachfergblog.blogspot.co.nz
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07 Nov 2016 21:09

@ backdoor. Your video shows an unorthodox pedaling style but does nothing to prove your point. There are methods as stated a hundred times by several experts that there are ways to prove his pedling style can provide more power or be more efficient. Why don't you just do it then? You have even been offered help.
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Re: Re:

08 Nov 2016 21:18

CoachFergie wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
It is only better or invincible in flat not too technical T'T's or anywhere uninterrupted constant high gear power output can be used. Because it needs a longer wind up time, it is not suitable for sprinting, mashing is best for this. There is nothing to prevent any rider from perfecting all three pedalling techniques except lack of knowledge.

----------------------------
My guess is that most cyclists do (or at least try to) use a specialized technique for riding situations (e.g. TTs) similar to the above.
How much (and 'if') their individual technique helps improve performance is one question.
Another question is if there is a particular 'single technique' that would be best for the majority of cyclists in those situations.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Your guess?

When there are coaches and sport scientists here who work with Olympians, World Tour Riders, World Champions and World Record Holders. As someone who can tick the first three boxes let me assure you that the only thing a rider may do different in a specific situation is vary cadence due to conditions and the use of specialist bikes between road, MTB, track and other events.



More misleading information

http://www.jsc-journal.com/ojs/index.php?journal=JSC&page=article&op=view&path%5B%5D=32
backdoor
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Re:

09 Nov 2016 11:18

[quote="[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2040675#p2040675]CoachFergie

The smart money is on a high VO2max, high fractional utilisation of VO2max and good efficiency. Proven contributors of performance in elite endurance athletes.[/quote]

Of course it is, because all research to date shows that trying to increase pedalling effectiveness will not improve performance. The problem with this research is that attempts to improve it were made by bringing the recovery leg into the equation. It can only be done by concentrating the change on the power applying leg.
backdoor
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Re: The pedaling technique thread

22 Nov 2016 15:28

...from today's Pez....and Dr Stephen Cheung....

Stroke Analysis
The key findings from the study suggests that professional cyclists do indeed have a different pedal stroke than elite and club cyclists. Some of these differences included:

• Professionals had higher proportion of positive force throughout their pedal stroke, ranging between 1.5 to 3.3% more of the pedal stroke compared to elite and club cyclists.

• Professionals also had tendencies towards a lower maximal torque than elite and club cycles at all three power outputs of 200, 250, and 300 W. combined with the above finding of greater positive force proportion, this suggests that the professional cyclists had a smoother and more even pedal stroke, with less need for a single massive peak burst of torque.

• Professionals also had a greater ability to unweight their legs during the upstroke phase, with lower minimum torque at all three power outputs compared to elite and club cyclists.

• In terms of the different joints involved in peddling, the main difference across fitness groups appears to be a progressively greater range of motion in the ankle with higher competitive levels, along with a greater degree of hip flexion.

What I found most interesting was that the professionals seem to have a smoother and longer power phase of their pedal stroke, which required them to have less of a peak burst of torque. This may mean that a single pedal stroke is distributed across more muscles, such that there is less risk of any particular muscle being overly stressed and fatigued.

In terms of the findings of lower minimum torque in professional cyclists, one interesting point to consider is that this may be due to a trend of a slightly lower body mass and therefore likely the lower limb mass in the professionals, rather than to any systematic changes in the pedal stroke itself. The authors found that, in comparing the results before and after preseason in the professionals, no changes in minimum torque was observed when changes in weight through the preseason was factored in.


http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/toolbox-pro-pedaling-technique/

....gee anyone know what Frank is up to ?.....think he might be interested in this ?....

Cheers
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Re: The pedaling technique thread

24 Nov 2016 08:07

blutto wrote:...from today's Pez....and Dr Stephen Cheung....

Stroke Analysis
The key findings from the study suggests that professional cyclists do indeed have a different pedal stroke than elite and club cyclists. Some of these differences included:

• Professionals had higher proportion of positive force throughout their pedal stroke, ranging between 1.5 to 3.3% more of the pedal stroke compared to elite and club cyclists.

• Professionals also had tendencies towards a lower maximal torque than elite and club cycles at all three power outputs of 200, 250, and 300 W. combined with the above finding of greater positive force proportion, this suggests that the professional cyclists had a smoother and more even pedal stroke, with less need for a single massive peak burst of torque.

• Professionals also had a greater ability to unweight their legs during the upstroke phase, with lower minimum torque at all three power outputs compared to elite and club cyclists.

• In terms of the different joints involved in peddling, the main difference across fitness groups appears to be a progressively greater range of motion in the ankle with higher competitive levels, along with a greater degree of hip flexion.

What I found most interesting was that the professionals seem to have a smoother and longer power phase of their pedal stroke, which required them to have less of a peak burst of torque. This may mean that a single pedal stroke is distributed across more muscles, such that there is less risk of any particular muscle being overly stressed and fatigued.

In terms of the findings of lower minimum torque in professional cyclists, one interesting point to consider is that this may be due to a trend of a slightly lower body mass and therefore likely the lower limb mass in the professionals, rather than to any systematic changes in the pedal stroke itself. The authors found that, in comparing the results before and after preseason in the professionals, no changes in minimum torque was observed when changes in weight through the preseason was factored in.


http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/toolbox-pro-pedaling-technique/

....gee anyone know what Frank is up to ?.....think he might be interested in this ?....

Cheers


Hmm,
  • All pros were from the same team
    • same coach?
    • same bike setup?
    • so they pedal the same...
  • 300W for a pro is much easier than 300W for a club cyclist
  • No discussion of causality in that relationship?

And, of course, a video to "pedal like eddy" for completeness :p

(Pez did advertise Frank's products for a while...)
berend
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24 Nov 2016 08:55

Yes, such assessment should be done under similar relative effort scenarios, e.g. a TT effort.
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25 Nov 2016 22:20

If you have a link to a 'free pdf' version of the

García-López J, Díez-Leal S, Ogueta-Alday A, Larrazabal J, Rodríguez-Marroyo JA. Differences in pedalling technique between road cyclists of different competitive levels. J Sports Sci 2016: 34: 1619-1626.

article, please let me know - I'd like to review the full text actual study and make my own evaluation.

From what I saw in the current study abstract and Cheung's comments, it looks like the actual data is quite similar to that in the 1991 Coyle study. The difference being how the data is interpretted.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re:

25 Nov 2016 22:50

JayKosta wrote:If you have a link to a 'free pdf' version of the

García-López J, Díez-Leal S, Ogueta-Alday A, Larrazabal J, Rodríguez-Marroyo JA. Differences in pedalling technique between road cyclists of different competitive levels. J Sports Sci 2016: 34: 1619-1626.

article, please let me know - I'd like to review the full text actual study and make my own evaluation.

From what I saw in the current study abstract and Cheung's comments, it looks like the actual data is quite similar to that in the 1991 Coyle study. The difference being how the data is interpretted.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Here you go Jay.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287996608_Differences_in_pedalling_technique_between_road_cyclists_of_different_competitive

You can download if from the above page.

Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
sciguy
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26 Nov 2016 00:54

Thanks for the link, but I'm having trouble doing the download .... keeps saying that it has failed after ~200K .
I'll try again using a better connection.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose_Rodriguez-Marroyo/publication/287996608_Differences_in_pedalling_technique_between_road_cyclists_of_different_competitive/links/575c781b08ae414b8e4c1c5c.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re:

26 Nov 2016 03:25

JayKosta wrote:If you have a link to a 'free pdf' version of the

García-López J, Díez-Leal S, Ogueta-Alday A, Larrazabal J, Rodríguez-Marroyo JA. Differences in pedalling technique between road cyclists of different competitive levels. J Sports Sci 2016: 34: 1619-1626.

article, please let me know - I'd like to review the full text actual study and make my own evaluation.

From what I saw in the current study abstract and Cheung's comments, it looks like the actual data is quite similar to that in the 1991 Coyle study. The difference being how the data is interpretted.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Is that the one where riders were made to ride at a fixed wattage and not at the same relative power? IOW it would have been much easier for some and harder for others.
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Re:

26 Nov 2016 12:32

JayKosta wrote:Thanks for the link, but I'm having trouble doing the download .... keeps saying that it has failed after ~200K .
I'll try again using a better connection.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose_Rodriguez-Marroyo/publication/287996608_Differences_in_pedalling_technique_between_road_cyclists_of_different_competitive/links/575c781b08ae414b8e4c1c5c.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


Jay,

It downloads fine via RoadRunner so you ought be be able to grab it with a good connection.

Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
sciguy
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26 Nov 2016 15:18

The 1991 Coyle study compared 'elite-national class' to 'good-state class' riders using a 1 hour maximum effort on ergometer (to simulate a 40k TT).
'Physiological and biomechanical factors associated with elite endurance cycling performance'
E.F. Coyle and others
0195-9131/91/2301-0093$3.00/0
MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN SPORTS AND EXERCISE
BIODYNAMICS
Vol. 23, No. 1

Jay Kosta
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27 Nov 2016 00:17

I got the full-text pdf of the Juan García-López, Sergio Díez-Leal, Ana Ogueta-Alday, Josu Larrazabal &
José A. Rodríguez-Marroyo study to download -

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jose_Rodriguez-Marroyo/publication/287996608_Differences_in_pedalling_technique_between_road_cyclists_of_different_competitive/links/575c781b08ae414b8e4c1c5c.pdf?origin=publication_detail

The main 'take-away' ideas advanced by the authors of the study seems to be:

1) There are detectable differences in pedalling technique between riders of different perfomance levels.
2) The differences in technique has some effect on the performance levels.

It's unclear if the differences are a 'learned skill' or a 'natural propensity', and if the technique was explicitely learned whether any 'training techniques or tools' was involved.

In the Conclusion there is one sentence that I believe is incorrect due to typo or editing.
"Professional cyclists had better pedalling technique than
elite and club cyclists, because they needed a lower positive
impulse proportion (between 1.5% and 3.3%) to pedalling
at the same power output."

I think it should read -

'Pros had better pedalling technique than elite and club cyclists, because they needed a lower MAXIMUM TORQUE during the positive impulse proportion ...'

The PIP for the pros was greater and the maximum torque less than that of the elite or club cyclists, as shown in Table 2 of the study.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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27 Nov 2016 05:46

The primary author was also employed as a biomechanics expert by the team,
and all the pro cyclists in the study. The primary author also shows
bias in the same paper to assume pulling up technique is better.

Therefore it's reasonable to assume that the pro cyclists on that team were
practicing pulling up.

No study was done on efficiency (o2 consumption or other), and no study was
done on improving sustained power. The pros remained pros. The club cyclists
remained club cyclists.

So all that was shown was that a group of 11 cyclists that were coached to
believe pulling up was important, and cycled 30,000 km in a year pulling up,
were better at pulling up than other cyclists.
berend
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Re:

27 Nov 2016 11:01

berend wrote:The primary author was also employed as a biomechanics expert by the team,
and all the pro cyclists in the study. The primary author also shows
bias in the same paper to assume pulling up technique is better.

Therefore it's reasonable to assume that the pro cyclists on that team were
practicing pulling up.

No study was done on efficiency (o2 consumption or other), and no study was
done on improving sustained power. The pros remained pros. The club cyclists
remained club cyclists.

So all that was shown was that a group of 11 cyclists that were coached to
believe pulling up was important, and cycled 30,000 km in a year pulling up,
were better at pulling up than other cyclists.



https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html
backdoor
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Re:

27 Nov 2016 14:03

berend wrote:...
Therefore it's reasonable to assume that the pro cyclists on that team were
practicing pulling up.

No study was done on efficiency (o2 consumption or other), and no study was
done on improving sustained power. The pros remained pros. The club cyclists
remained club cyclists.
...

-----
Agreed, and it would be helpful to do a similar pedalling technique study of other pros who were not specifically trained in 'pulling up'.

I don't know the comparative performance level of the cyclists in the study to other pros, but their being pros on a WorldTour team indicates to me that they are at quite a high level. So I doubt that their efficiency,power, or endurance is sub-par for the pro level.

To me, an interesting question is whether with extensive training the elite and club cyclists would be able to develop the technique, power, and endurance) used by those pros. It might be the case that those pros had some natural/genetic basis for being ABLE to develop and use that technique. It might be that simply employing the technique is NOT an advantage - but that having the physical ability to do so is the critical element.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re:

12 Dec 2016 23:38

CoachFergie wrote:What a crock of s**t.

What a vivid imagination you have. You have discovered nothing.

Very easy to estimate the effects of your pedalling technique with ANY power meter to see if more power can be generated, yet you stick to your delusions.

What a sad individual.


http://www.cobbcycling.com/catalog/crankset/

How do shorter cranks eliminate dead spot in pedalling ?
backdoor
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Re: Re:

13 Dec 2016 00:16

backdoor wrote:,,,
http://www.cobbcycling.com/catalog/crankset/

How do shorter cranks eliminate dead spot in pedalling ?

-----------------------------
I couldn't find any place in the CobbCycling article about short cranks that mentioned 'eliminating the (10-2) deadspot'.
My reading of the article is that his speculation is shorter chanks might be a benefit because their 10-2 'foot movment and foot vertical travel' distances are less than with a longer crank - and the distance decrease through the deadspot would reduce fatigue. But the 10-2 deadspot is still present.

Did you see a spot in the article that mentions eliminating the deadspot?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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