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The pedaling technique thread

Moderator: Tonton

Re: Re:

31 Mar 2017 22:07

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:
All this nonsense on the internet and you haven't once taught a local rider and transformed their TT ability! That's just sad!!!


Not sad, most satisfying. As I said before, my only objective after only taking up cycling in my forties was to find the perfect pedalling technique, their only interest is in the latest most expensive gizmos. That's not surprising when all coaches like yourself are telling them technique is of no importance.

LOL

You're telling us that data, which would actually demonstrate whether or not your concepts make sense, is of no importance.
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Re:

01 Apr 2017 14:15

backdoor wrote:...
You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.

------
Without data you're only guessing that there is a 'surge of power'.

I'm sure there is a feeling of intense muscle effort, but do you know how much actual power is being produced?

Do you feel the bike doing obvious acceleration each time at TDC? And is that what you really want?

For each rotation of the crank, for each leg do you want to feel sectors where the muscles are working really hard and then relaxing in the other sectors?

Or do you want some other feeling of 'muscle usage'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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02 Apr 2017 01:02

Micro accelerations during steady state cycling* due to pedalling in a pulse like pseudo-sinusoidal manner (i.e. a normal application of power while pedalling) vary between +/- 0.03g. It's tiny. Maximal variance in bike speed during a pedal stroke is 0.1km/h (<0.3%).

You can change the shape of the power application around the pedal stroke all you like but it's not going to make a lick of difference to the velocity sustained. To do that, you need to apply more power overall and our limitations are metabolic in nature, not force.

* Micro acceleration rates with power applied in sinusoidal manner during pedal stroke at 90 rpm on flat road, no wind, 80kg bike + rider, Crr 0.005, CdA 0.35m^2, Air density 1.20kg/m^3 with Average power 250W
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02 Apr 2017 01:09

Maths: FTW! Well played Alex!!!
Hamish Ferguson
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Re:

02 Apr 2017 08:55

[quote="[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2087126#p2087126]Alex Simmons/RST[/

You can change the shape of the power application around the pedal stroke all you like but it's not going to make a lick of difference to the velocity sustained. To do that, you need to apply more power overall and our limitations are metabolic in nature, not force.

[/quote]

How about rowing, fixed seat v sliding seat ?
backdoor
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Re:

02 Apr 2017 09:59

CoachFergie wrote:Maths: FTW! Well played Alex!!!



You would say that, but Alex is overlooking one important limitation to chain drive power, which is the tangential effect of the force that is being applied. By increasing the tangential effect you get more power than another rider from the same maximal force.
backdoor
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02 Apr 2017 10:59

So you say, prove it. Provide the maths to beat his maths, show us the data!
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 12:22

backdoor wrote:How about rowing, fixed seat v sliding seat ?


Are you sure you want to use that example to further your case? Something designed to allow athletes to use the big, efficient, stomping, quad and glute muscles even more? :lol:
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 20:19

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Maths: FTW! Well played Alex!!!



You would say that, but Alex is overlooking one important limitation to chain drive power, which is the tangential effect of the force that is being applied. By increasing the tangential effect you get more power than another rider from the same maximal force.

Data please Noel.

So you admit that should your method work, it results in sustainably generating more power, which means you'll be able to easily and cheaply measure the difference in power output for a rider before and after a pedalling technique intervention.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for the results though....
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 20:25

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Maths: FTW! Well played Alex!!!



You would say that, but Alex is overlooking one important limitation to chain drive power, which is the tangential effect of the force that is being applied. By increasing the tangential effect you get more power than another rider from the same maximal force.

No, I'm simply pointing out that:
i. accelerations due to the pulse like application of power are tiny, and if the application of power was less pulse like and more even, then the micro-accelerations would be even smaller
ii. our limiter is metabolic in nature.
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 21:10

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.

------
Without data you're only guessing that there is a 'surge of power'.

I'm sure there is a feeling of intense muscle effort, but do you know how much actual power is being produced?

Do you feel the bike doing obvious acceleration each time at TDC? And is that what you really want?

For each rotation of the crank, for each leg do you want to feel sectors where the muscles are working really hard and then relaxing in the other sectors?

Or do you want some other feeling of 'muscle usage'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance. Because you are using a high gear there should be only insignificant if any acceleration but what you are doing by replacing the dead spot with maximal torque is decreasing the slight deceleration that occurs. What you want is an extended power stroke that can give the greatest possible tangential force to the crank over 180 deg. From 5 to 11 you draw back, unweight and while they are recovering prepare your power muscles for simultaneous changeover of power application when cranks are at the 11/5 o'c positions.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 21:44

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
You can feel that surge of power as your foot goes over the top.

------
Without data you're only guessing that there is a 'surge of power'.

I'm sure there is a feeling of intense muscle effort, but do you know how much actual power is being produced?

Do you feel the bike doing obvious acceleration each time at TDC? And is that what you really want?

For each rotation of the crank, for each leg do you want to feel sectors where the muscles are working really hard and then relaxing in the other sectors?

Or do you want some other feeling of 'muscle usage'?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance. Because you are using a high gear there should be only insignificant if any acceleration but what you are doing by replacing the dead spot with maximal torque is decreasing the slight deceleration that occurs. What you want is an extended power stroke that can give the greatest possible tangential force to the crank over 180 deg. From 5 to 11 you draw back, unweight and while they are recovering prepare your power muscles for simultaneous changeover of power application when cranks are at the 11/5 o'c positions.


April Fools is over Noel. No one believes your nonsense, no one ever has. Data, or it never hapened.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 21:55

backdoor wrote:No guessing, <snipped out a load of babble>.

Data please.
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 21:56

backdoor wrote:...
No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance.
...

--------------------------------
Yes, that method of pedalling could be done, but whether it really would produce more overall power and speed with sustainable endurance is not obvious.

Regarding the use of the arms to stablize the position during the power sectors, I think that would actually use additional fuel and O2 for the purpose of keeping the rider stable on the saddle. With the traditional pedalling technique, gravity is more involved in keeping the rider on the saddle, and it uses less fuel and O2 to provide saddle stability.

Perhaps Anq's max VO2 was great enough for him to successfully use his arms as you describe and also to actually increase his leg power while remaining stable on the saddle. But that doesn't mean that everyone could achieve similar results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 22:21

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:...
No guessing, that surge of power is the result of starting your power stroke around 11 o'c and boosted by the ability to use arm resistance.
...

--------------------------------


Perhaps Anq's max VO2 was great enough for him to successfully use his arms as you describe and also to actually increase his leg power while remaining stable on the saddle. But that doesn't mean that everyone could achieve similar results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA


No, Anq. was forced to use double handed resistance. With Scott Rake aero bars you can use alternate hand resistance which is more effective and removes all lower back stress the root cause of chronic 'on the bike' lower back pain.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 23:19

backdoor wrote:No, Anq. was forced to use double handed resistance. With Scott Rake aero bars you can use alternate hand resistance which is more effective and removes all lower back stress the root cause of chronic 'on the bike' lower back pain.

Data please.
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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2017 23:38

backdoor wrote:...
No, Anq. was forced to use double handed resistance. With Scott Rake aero bars you can use alternate hand resistance which is more effective and removes all lower back stress the root cause of chronic 'on the bike' lower back pain.

-------------------
Regardless of whether double or alternating single arm is used, doing so is still more effort, and consumes more 'fuel and O2'.
Even IF that technique was 'best' for Anq, it doesn't imply that it would be best for everyone.

Jay Kosta
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03 Apr 2017 02:52

Or that Scott Rake bars were banned within the year in the early nineties.

A big IF considering no data has been presented from Jacques.

We know Eddy Merckx sustained 450 watts in a lab test in Belgium weeks after he broke the World Record in Mexico.

We know that VO2max, fractional utilisation of VO2max and efficiency are a large part of the motor. We know that pacing and aerodynamics are a large part of the deal. No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.

You are doing a very poor job of communicating your theory Noel. Shocking that you haven't ever tried to actually teach it to someone and measure a difference in performance, just continue the sham of "look at Jacques" with no real evidence of what he did or whether it benefitted him or harmed his performance.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

03 Apr 2017 08:59

berend wrote:
backdoor wrote:How about rowing, fixed seat v sliding seat ?


Are you sure you want to use that example to further your case? Something designed to allow athletes to use the big, efficient, stomping, quad and glute muscles even more? :lol:



In both cases you are extending the range and and improving the effectiveness of your leg force generating muscles
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Re:

03 Apr 2017 16:57

CoachFergie wrote:
No one has ever presented data showing a change to pedalling technique has improved performance.



That's because no one has tried to change the power stroke of the pedalling.
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